Got 514 problems!

[Back in Black]

OK, I've been gone a while but some may remember my old saga of problems with my 514.. created by my builder. It's been 4 years from heck and I'm trying to get her back on the road

It's now professionally rebuilt and dyno run, 800 miles on her with a carb and was still smoking a bit of blue oil smoke out both sidepipes when I shut her down last year and commenced to install the Holley EFI w/airdoor and rails

Went to the shop for programming and dyno, we modified a few things and got her running when the tech discovered a tab was broken in the stock distributor and it was "free advancing" and causing pinging. He stopped, we got a new distributor and modified it with a steel gear and back to the dyno

He had disconnected my PCV valve, (It went to the base of the carb/now airdoor and in street running I had little leakage last year after I installed it) he was telling me it was interfering with his tuning of the EFI computer.. he ran it up to 4 K on the dyno and the oil cap blew off sending oil onto the fender and such. The cap is just the push in type with an o ring. He tells me the engines got damage of some kind.. probably rings scorched from detonation or from being washed out from the carb. No compression tests run yet, my mechanic friend and I are going to do compression and leak down tests and inspect the plugs when I truck her back to his shop.

This mechanic friend says this sort of issue is common with this engine, especially when new, and that 800 miles is not enough to fully seat the rings..

I'm getting pro engine builders telling me the rings should be fully seated by now and this should not happen, and opposite advice from my friend..?

Any advice, comments?

[Tony Radford]

I'm not running a BB, but when my stroker was built, my rings only lasted a few minutes. I was sucking a quart of oil every hundred miles or so. It was theorized that my Demon carb washed the oil off the rings due to jetting and insufficient advance. After she failed a leak down test, my pistons were removed and re-ringed (the original rings were completely worn down). I took my car to a local dyno and they ran a bunch of pulls, rejetted the carb back to where it was when originally installed and cranked in a bunch of advance to get the A/F ratio right. That was 12K miles ago and all is well. A few other folks down this way had similar experiences.

[Back in Black]

Thing is I'm not really using much oil.. 800 miles and maybe a quarter of a quart low

[Cracker]

Don't know about the miles but after a half days worth of dyno tuning on my original rebuild my professional builder told me the rings WERE seated. Keith Craft, I believe stated the same thing after his build and tests.

Maybe George G., Bill P., Keith, Tom or some other engine experts will share thier thoughts.

[Tom Wells]

Yo BiB,

Long time no read....

Just a few off the wall thoughts:

1) valve guide clearances?
2) oil drain-back from the heads restricted?
3) vacuum leak?

Also, my Holley EFI needs all the hoses attached during tuning, especially including the PCV which seems to be a controlled and steady vacuum leak.

BTW, I finally got mine going "like a real car". I'm on the Holley wideband sensor with ECU (computer) #5 from Holley.

Still not perfect, but approaching it steadily. The latest fix was to ground the wideband controller connector separately, using its unused gauge connector's black wire. Just crossed 16K miles of smiles, including hundreds of miles on the full 3.7 mile track at Sebring last month - wide open!

Here are a couple of places to look and ask:

These guys know 385s better than anyone: http://www.460ford.com/index.php

and these guys can sometimes help with the Holley or similar EFI: http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/pos...rd=UBB12&page=
(don't let the chevytalk name bother you, there's some really good folks in there, especially street sweeper and some others - it is moderated by a Holley EFI manager)

Hope you get it going!

Tom

[Back in Black]

Tom, good to see you here.. and once again many thinks for EFI conversion info you're offered me.

#2 possibility is I think out of the picture as the oil drains nicely from the heads

#1 is a possibility that I think our bleed down test will catch?

#3 possibility.. yes, here is something to look at if we eliminate other possibilities and actually fire it up again

Thing that's bothering me is everything was good (no real oil leakage) with the PCV breather installed as before. Yes a bit of blue smoke was issuing from the sidepipes, but not too bad (I thought) My dilemma is this tech guy who is doing it is very highly recommended and seems very talented but I'm wondering that if he tuned it with the PCV disconnected then how's it going to run properly when it has to be reconnected? Won't it run leaner? He said it was running somewhat rich with the PCV removed..

PS: Great to hear you and your cobra are both well and back on the street again!

[Excaliber]

I'm a believer in a PC valve, without I worry about to much internal pressure.

A quart of oil in a thousand miles could be considered 'normal'.

[Mike Simard]

BinB, it's not unheard of for breathers to fly off during dyno runs and it may not be a problem, there will be some blowby even if the rings seal well. If you had detonation problems it's possible to have damaged a piston. Why not do a compression check to find odd cylinders? You can have a detonation damaged piston with chunks broken off around the ring land and not even know it, you would want to catch it before the ring breaks up.

[FUNFER2]

Just do a simple "leak down test". You'll be able to see if the rings are set and if there's any blow by. Then do a compression test. Also, read your plugs.
What was the fuel curve results on the dyno ?

[Back in Black]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Just do a simple "leak down test". You'll be able to see if the rings are set and if there's any blow by. Then do a compression test. Also, read your plugs.
What was the fuel curve results on the dyno ?

The fuel curve results I do not yet know, but I'll ask when they reopen on Wednesday

[The Dreamer]

Blue smoke (oil leak) out of the sidepipes could be the result of a intake gasket leak. This is especially true if you were using the Fel-Pro gaskets. Speculation of my part is people using the printoseal gasket still put RTV on them and it is causing the gasket to get too compressed. The gaskets get mangled and you get an intake leak. I switched to some Victor Reinz Nitro Seal gaskets and it cleared up my oil in the sidepipe problem.

[Bob Marshall]

514's need lots of air....and clean air. I have two twist in oil breathers and a PVC that is NOT from a hot rod shop....those are NOT sufficient for the crankcase to breathe. Any questions send me an e-mail rwm29@comcast.net
I've had mine for 5 years and no troubles.....626hp and still going strong.

[ByronRACE]

So if you're running a PCV with an open crankcase, how did you tune around the vacuum leak?

With a PCV, the air path would the through the breathers, through the crankcase, through the PCV, and into the carb...which is a vacuum leak. That air would not flow past the carb venturis and fuel wouldn't be metered for it...which should cause a lean condition most noticable at idle and light throttle.

Did you just richen idle fuel to compensate? Any weird off-idle stumble problems?

[Back in Black]

Here's the latest:

Finally found a shop that could do the job right.. there's nothing wrong with my engine!

I had initially taken it to Blood Enterprises in Auburn, WA but the result was:

1) Mr Blood could not get it tuned.. suspect he does not really know much about this issue and just wanted to rid himself of the dilemna

2) My windshield chrome trim has two nice scratches in it

3) Someone at Blood used my chrome front hoop bumper to pull on to move the car (a BIG no-no) and pulled the support tube out of the socket receiver. Fixing that today

4) Because he told me the engine was "hurt" I paid $240 to truck it to my buddy's shop where we discovered the problem was operator error at Blood

5) Paid Mr Blood way too much for very little result!

I finally took it to a really great local shop: Horsepower Connection in Olympia/Thurston County.
http://www.horsepowerconnection.com/
Brian is a great guy and very competent. He got it going with a complete reprogramming, reattaching the PCV valve and some adjustments and 3 hours on the dyno. Far less cost than Blood, to boot.
Must replace my hokey stock throttle cable bracket so I'll be going back there for a little final work when the part comes in, but I drove her home last night and she's running great with the EFI.. finally!!!

[Back in Black]

PS: Advice on an extra intake breather noted and if I have problems I will do this but during the full on dyno pulls there was zero oil emitted with the PCV properly attached. I suspect as the engine breaks in a gets a few K miles any potential existing problem will vanish

I also want to give a pat on the back to Cope Brothers engine shop in Tacoma, rebuilders of my engine. They did a superb job for a very reasonable price

[ByronRACE]

Originally Posted by Back in Black

PS: Advice on an extra intake breather noted and if I have problems I will do this but during the full on dyno pulls there was zero oil emitted with the PCV properly attached. I suspect as the engine breaks in a gets a few K miles any potential existing problem will vanish

I also want to give a pat on the back to Cope Brothers engine shop in Tacoma, rebuilders of my engine. They did a superb job for a very reasonable price

Not knowing exactly what advice you're referring to, let me just clarify that my comment regarding the vacuum leak applies ONLY to carbureted engines. In your case, assuming you're using a speed density or alpha-n EFI system without a MAF...there is no problem letting air leak in to the vacuum side of the manifold as long as it's not so much that it creates an idle speed problem.

And, congratulations on getting it running well!

[scott coyle]

BIB,

Throw that PCV away. It will contaminate the mixture. My 12 to 1, 670 hp 358 ci motor has tons of crank case preasure. I have dash 12 lines running off of each air cleaner to a seperate tank with 2 large breathers. Otherwise, I would have oil everywhere. I thought I had blow-by at first, but no it is just a lot of hp which creates pressure.

Scott

[Dominik]

good morning,

I once had a rebuild engine burning oil. At idle already there was plenty of blow-by past the rings exiting the sidepipes.

I advanced ignition at idle plenty (from 4 deg! to 20 deg) and it improved.

it appears that the too late ignition advance heated the top of the pistons up extremely causing the oil underneath to "cook" and move past the rings.

possible?

dominik

[Jerry Clayton]

Dominik
More likely is that the oily rich mixture burns slower and tha advanced timing lit it off in time to burn in the engine, not the pipes

Jerry

[Back in Black]

I really don't know why it looked like oil smoke before but there's virtually no smoke now that it's programmed properly, and the plugs looked OK and dry (just a little rich because the first shop had the ECU improperly programmed) when we checked the plugs after the distributor was replaced and timed properly. Not running rich or lean now, just perfect. All's well that ends well