Definitive Fix for Starter Misalignment

[cwmcobra]

I've assembled the RobbMc starter an checked clearances with the ring gear on the flywheel. It all checks out correctly. Here's the RobbMc starter:



Here's the gap between the flywheel face and the end of the starter pinion:



Finally, here's the tooth engagement of the starter pinion in the new ring gear:



See the paper clip in the picture. This confirms about 0.030" gap between the end of the pinion tooth and the root of the ring gear tooth. I also measured the backlash of the gear set to be about 0.035". According to Robb, these are all within expected ranges for proper pinion to ring gear engagement.

The engine is not back in the car yet. When it is, I'll post my comments on the function of the starter.

Chuck

[cwmcobra]

The engine is back in the Cobra and I've had numerous opportunities to use the new starter under various conditions. It's worked flawlessly. The solenoid location is infinitely variable and I rotated it around behind the starter body away from the heat of the headers. When it's started after a hot soak, it spins just like when it was cold. The only time it struggled was when I was experimenting with spark timing and got it a bit too far advanced. Right now I'm running 24 degrees initial advance, which is up from 16 that most recommend, and the starter seems to spin the motor with ease. Based on the detailed analysis that Robb did, working with me on identifying the potential sources of mismatch between the starter pinion and the flywheel ring gear, I'm totally confident that I won't have any more broken teeth on the flywheel. The RobbMc starter is a quality piece that functions very well. If you can make a stock Ford starter fit in your application, it should work fine as well, but if, like most of us, you have space constraints for starter installation, I can't recommend Robb's starter any higher.

I've attached a picture of the starter installed on the engine.



Chuck

[ByronRACE]

If you think you're going to simply ovalize the bottom bolt hole and pivot the starter over closer or further from the ring gear when using a FORD F250 starter, don't overlook the fact that it has a locating ring that mates with the bellhousing. It's not so easy. I've been there.

Someone needs to make a 460 starter that (1) does not have this locating ring and (2) has a simple adjuster that pivots the starter as-needed and (3) has an inspection hole so you can see the starter gear and ring gear with the starter installed (without removing the transmission). This would be an obvious hot seller...this problem is widespread.

If such a starter existed, all you'd do is back the adjustment nut off, install it, spin the adjusting bolt until it's tight, then back it off X turns...and tighten the main mounting bolts. Someone please make this so I don't have to.

Byron

P.S. If anyone cares, drilling/modifying your lakewood bellhousing voids the SFI certification Also, the root-cause of this problem (according to and old timer at Tilton) is that Lakewood used an FE flyweel when mocking up their bellhousing design and has yet to fix it.

[cwmcobra]

Byron,

After discussing with several starter specialists, I can't agree with you more. When I had my engine out of the car, I was able to do a lot of fitment tests. As luck would have it, I have a stock "block plate" for a 460 that I bolted up with the Lakewood block plate. Doing this, I confirmed that the registration diameter for for the starter in the Lakewood block plate is precisely in the same position as the one in the stock plate. The stock starter has the pinion centrally located in the registration diameter, as does the starter I bought from RobbMc. Any starter that has an offset pinion is likely to have problems. Both the Summit and Ford Racing starters had some offset. The stock starter also has 9 pinion teeth, as does Robb's starter. The pinion on the Summit Protorque starter has 11 teeth. And, surprisingly, the mini starter I bought from Ford Racing has 10 teeth. Seems that nothing matches the stock alignment geometry except a stock starter or the RobbMc starter. I agree with your suggestion for an easily adjustable starter with a viewing window in the bellhousing. But, since no one has marketed this yet, my best approach was to confirm that what I have is geometrically correctly aligned. And, for those who can fit a stock Ford truck starter in their applications, an even lower cost option is available.

No question, trying to improve the alignment of the starter by relocating the mounting holes is a non-functional, unreliable solution.

Chuck

[ByronRACE]

I'm going to order to RobbMc starter on Monday.

I'll report to the group if this solves my problem as well.

Right now I'm running a very molested Ford F250 starter that was modified to move the starter gear closer to the ring gear. It works, but I did a poor job of the needed modifications (I was frustrated, and in a hurry). I was planning on buying another F250 starter, weld up the bottom hole, reposition it, and re-machine the locating ring and starter hole. Why? Because I think the ovalized hole solution eventually will cause ring gear failure when the starter finds its way back to the original position. I just don't want that risk.

If this RobbMc starter solves it, I'll be a real happy guy. If it doesn't, I'll have one for sale.

Byron

[cwmcobra]

Byron,

What flywheel are you using? Robb will ask you to measure the depth of the ring gear from the block plate to determine which pinion to install. He has two; a standard and a short pinion. After measuring mine we determined I needed a short pinion and found the reason was a recess machined on the back of my flywheel where it mounts to the crankshaft. I'm using the Ford Racing M-6375-Z460 flywheel that is actually made by McLeod. I ordered a replacement ring gear from McLeod through Summit and installed it myself. Now that I have confidence in the alignment, I expect this combo to last a long time.

I have a short summary of my investigation that I shared with Robb to confirm proper alignment in PDF form. Email me and I'll send it to you if you like.

I think you will be impressed with Robb if you talk with him. He's not only a very knowledgable guy on starters, but he's motorhead racer also. Hope this helps.

Chuck

[cwmcobra]

Byron,

I just saw your edit to the previous post about the Lakewood bellhousing:

"Also, the root-cause of this problem (according to and old timer at Tilton) is that Lakewood used an FE flyweel when mocking up their bellhousing design and has yet to fix it."

This was the path I started down, talking to Lakewood, Ford Racing and McLeod. In fact, I was all set to find a 184 tooth flywheel to replace the 176 tooth gear that I have. I turns out that the number of teeth is pretty immaterial, since the diameters of Ford flywheels, no matter how many teeth, are within about 0.020". This was all a great mystery to me until I talked with Robb and we started down the correct path of analysis. Confirming that the registration diameter on the Lakewood blockplate is in the correct location was a huge benefit and the fix fell into place after that.

I've long been blaming Lakewood for the problem, but now can blame every starter manufacturer that does not use the stock Ford design with centered pinion and the correct number of pinion teeth.

I'm a happy camper!

Chuck

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by ByronRACE

I'm going to order to RobbMc starter on Monday.

I'll report to the group if this solves my problem as well.

Right now I'm running a very molested Ford F250 starter that was modified to move the starter gear closer to the ring gear. It works, but I did a poor job of the needed modifications (I was frustrated, and in a hurry). I was planning on buying another F250 starter, weld up the bottom hole, reposition it, and re-machine the locating ring and starter hole. Why? Because I think the ovalized hole solution eventually will cause ring gear failure when the starter finds its way back to the original position. I just don't want that risk.

If this RobbMc starter solves it, I'll be a real happy guy. If it doesn't, I'll have one for sale.

Byron

Hey Byron,

Did you order the RobbMc starter? Have you installed it? Any feedback?

I ask, because I think I need a new starter, and I want to be sure I get best one for the $$$.

Thanks,
Randy...