429 is pissing me off!! I have no idea anymore as to the problem! Please Help!!

[commercialcobb]

Here goes... Since the complete overhaul of our 429 with a heavy flat tappet cam and other goodies (ie. high rise intake, MSD 6AL, MSD Distributor and Coil, Tremec TKO500 5spd, Ford 9" with limited slip rebuilt and 355 gears with 28" by 10" road tires on the rear) we have had one major issue and can't get a grip on it. We thought it was our Rochester QuadraJet/QuadraBog/QuadraCrap and have had that thing tuned so many times but when we step on the gas in first and only first gear it's off to the races!! Good times, heaven forbid I wanna smoke the tires!! When we light em up in 1st and really get em spinning it starts bogging at 4000 RPM's at which point the tires hook up and it starts bucking like a bronco on steroids until I let off to shift up or give up. Now when I start out spinning them it's all fun and game but when I really put the spur's to it and the RPM's start heading for the roof (6000 RPM Red Line Limiter on the MSD 6AL) it shuts me out at 4000. I have my timing set at 16 and I thinks its 33 at 3500. I can smoke them from a dead stop in 2nd and 3rd gear with no problem. Is there some kind of limiter that stops the MSD from shooting up to fast (say 4000rpm)? Every where else she runs perfect.. Fires up perfectly from dead cold starts with a bit of motivation on the hot starts and fly's through the gears if I don't try to burn em up in first. COME ON, IF YOU CAN'T SMOKE THE TIRES, THEN WHATS THE POINT?? Just kidding but please try and help me get this figured out. I don't want to pay another carb dude if thats not the problem.. Thanks in advance.. (The photo is old, but the parts ar ethe same and the vacuum advance and any other things missing are now in place)

[Excaliber]

Sounds like you running out of gas. Fuel filter, restricted fuel line, sub par fuel pump?

[PANAVIA]

Fuel , lack thereof--or distributor is going wonky at 4000.

[Rick Parker]

Fuel Delivery! Possisibly undersized line.

[Hotfingrs]

Definately sounds like a fuel problem, like everyone else said...line, filter pump or possible the vent.

[vector1]

first thing i'd replace the limiter chip with something else and see if the problem goes away, then i'd pull the little iddy biddy air cleaner off and see if it clears up, maybe do both at the same time, then you won't know which corrected it, but that's just me.

[RICK LAKE]

commercialcobb Where are your grounds and powers for the MSD coming from?
What coil are you running? # and where? Feel the wires(main ones) are they HOT to the touch?? Heavy red and black.
I am hoping you have done a pressure test and volumne test of the fuel system? I also hope that the fuel line from INSIDE the tank pickup is 3/8" to the fuel pump. The venting on the gas tank is working OK. No pressure or vacuum when you open the fuel door?
Can you can another MSD box and coil for a check that you knows runs ok?
At this time I don't think it's a carb problem solo. Which Quad cfm are you running? What pressure reading do you have on the fuel line into the carb?
If all this checks out, get into the guts of the distributor and look at the module in there.
Does the motor run up to 4,000 rpms without any problem? This is without the burnouts. Normal driving?
Your fuel tank my have NO BAFFLES in it and this will cause the problem too with what is happening. You are sucking air in the tank pickup. Fill the fuel tank to full and try you burnout. Good luck Rick L.

[Bill Wells]

As Rick L states ; FILL THE TANK and try it again , an easy cheap start to your list of 'what ifs' .

On my car on WOT acceleration and fuel less than 1/3 tank the gas sloshes/ rushes to the back of the tank and my fuel pick up sucks air - just as you describe . Bill

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by Bill Wells

As Rick L states ; FILL THE TANK and try it again , an easy cheap start to your list of 'what ifs' .

On my car on WOT acceleration and fuel less than 1/3 tank the gas sloshes/ rushes to the back of the tank and my fuel pick up sucks air - just as you describe . Bill

Ditto.

E

[bran3b]

my 460 did the same thing plus it was overheating. I eventually found that I had a dented fuel line and was starving the engine. When I found the damaged line I had given up and was about to tear the engine apart and start over. haven't overheated since and performance is way up.

[commercialcobb]

Fuel lines from the tank all the way forward are 1/2 aluminum fuel line and the fuel pump and tank setup all came from Summit Racing and was ordered by the motorhead that built the motor. The tank is half full but makes no difference because I can burn out in second gear just fine. Plus when my tires are hooked I am pulling more G's than I am when I haven't gained traction. I can't say that I sounds like fuel because it's only in one gear under heavy load and RPM's flying up to the roof.

Here is my setup:
MSD 6AL # 6420 Multiple Spark Ignition
MSD Pro Billet Distributor PN 8477
2 grey springs 1 large gauge with 4 wraps and 1 small gauge with 5 wraps
MSD Blaster SS PN 8207
I have a racing fuel cell with racing pump and 1/2 fuel line from the pump to the carb..

[Tom Wells]

racing fuel cell

hmmmm......

Tom

[bran3b]

does the racing cell have foam or rigid baffles? I have seen the foam come apart and clog filters.

[Excaliber]

When I was working with Formula Ford teams one time we got a bad batch of gas in the garage. Filled all the cars with it in preparation for race day. Whatever additive was in there caused ALL the fuel cells to promptly disintegrate. What a mess that was. We THINK it was a "tipping point" due to the age of the gas tanks, fuel cells do have a limited life span. These were foam cells. ERA has baffles and even one way doors in their gas tanks, by the way.

Not likely the case here, just saying,,, be careful where you get your gas!

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by commercialcobb

Fuel lines from the tank all the way forward are 1/2 aluminum fuel line and the fuel pump and tank setup all came from Summit Racing and was ordered by the motorhead that built the motor. The tank is half full but makes no difference because I can burn out in second gear just fine. Plus when my tires are hooked I am pulling more G's than I am when I haven't gained traction. I can't say that I sounds like fuel because it's only in one gear under heavy load and RPM's flying up to the roof.

Here is my setup:
MSD 6AL # 6420 Multiple Spark Ignition
MSD Pro Billet Distributor PN 8477
2 grey springs 1 large gauge with 4 wraps and 1 small gauge with 5 wraps
MSD Blaster SS PN 8207
I have a racing fuel cell with racing pump and 1/2 fuel line from the pump to the carb..

Dyno time?

[RICK LAKE]

commercialcobb A first name would be nice to call you, anyway What kind of fuel pump are you running electric or off the motor? Aluminum fuel lines are having not the best to run for a fuel system Methonal in the gas is on the rise. Do you have ANY rubber to maker connections? Octane booster, E-85 gas will eat the rubber and degrade it into little balls of goo. You need to full the fuel cell and check to see if there is a one way valve in the fuel cell. As others have said some gases break down the foam in the fuel cell.
Down the road I would also tell you to replace that Aluminum fuel line with either steel, plastic, or SSteel line. Aluminum is not safe for a street car. Some states will not allow you to pass inspection for the state with this kind of line. NJ is one of them. For now, you might want to have rubber clamps every 12" to stop any vibration of the line. I have seen pro street cars burn to the ground from running Aluminum lines. They where doing this because of the color blue and red coatings.

[commercialcobb]

By racing fuel cell and pump I mean they were performance parts ordered from Summit Racing. This car only has 120 miles on it. I can't imagine the fuel cell going bad.

Where are my power and ground wires from the ignition going?
I just checked and the power is conected to the starter where the 8 gauge wire from the positive terminal is mounted. But that wire also goes through a shut off key mounted on the back panel of the cockpit.
Should I re-wire directly to the battery? Will that keep the box charged and burn it up?

And the ground is grounded directly to the block. Same thing, should I run it to the battery as well??

The fuel pump runs through a relay set through the engine oil pressure so in the event of oil pressure loss or in a crash the fuel pump will shut down.. I am a Pilot and very perticular about safety..

Is there a better set of advance springs for the dist. that would be better for my setup or maybe the advance stop bushing needs to be replaced with a different size?

My problem only exist at full throttle in first gear at 4000 rpm with tires spinning. Tires not spinning and it fly's right on through 4000 with no problem..

Would changing the max rpm ship in the MSD do any good?? We never plan to break 5000+ rpms anyways. It just sounds way to wound up for are liking.

I am not asking you guys to re-build my engine, just looking for another option since all mine have failed.

[vector1]

i suggested changing the msd chip earlier, but if it is only happening in first i doubt this is the culprit. does sound like a fueling problem, uncovering something or running out of fuel in the carb or going rich. o2 sensor in the exhaust would tell a lot. i would try it without the air cleaner, and make sure the exhaust is not restricting, simple stuff to start with. you might go through a lot of tires before you find this.

[Tom Wells]

commercialcobb,

I withdraw any prior comments because after re-reading your original post, it sounds to me as if you are creating a situation where in first gear, you're bouncing the engine off the MSD rev limiter. This is completely normal.

When you take off in second you don't over-rev as easily so it doesn't happen. I've done this quite a few times in, um, traction-limited situations.

So relax, there likely isn't anything wrong at all! Your impression that the engine cuts out at 4000 rpm is erroneous. The tach, due to the needle's inertia (and your physical ability to perceive it) hasn't caught up with the engine, but its feed to the MSD has.

To prove this, you could try slicks, or even a gentle takeoff followed by rolling into the throttle without losing traction; I'd expect the tach to go to 6000 as in any of the other gears.

Let us know,

Tom

[vector1]

what tom said.