How much of a market for smaller budget rebuild engines?

[blykins]

I find myself trying to advertise high dollar engines all the time...all new 347's, 408's, 427's, etc.

How many Cobra owners are just in the market for a nicely rebuilt 302 or 351 without the frills? Maybe a complete engine, built and dyno'd for $5000-6000 instead of $8000-9000?

Thoughts?

[Z-linkCobra]

The problem I see Brent...most guys that know what they want are gonna build it themselves. I dont have all the machinery like a machine shop...but I know who to farm it to and get it done without having to pay someone a middle man fee so to speak.

The guys that dont know what they want and have the money for a 8-9000 motor arent gonna settle for that...they want a 30,000 Keith Kraft.

I think you could do a stock 302 or 351 for alot less than 5-6000.00

Just my thoughts.

[blykins]

Well a lot of guys know what they want, but don't have the experience or tools to do it....otherwise I wouldn't be staying in business.

I'm trying to see where the majority of the builds fall....if the guys want the $$$ bling or if they want a good solid dependable engine that they can beat on when they want to.

Sure, you can build a 351W for less than $5000, but I like providing all new parts...no reused rods with press fit pins, no stock reground cranks, heads that actually flow some air, roller cams, etc.

As a business, you go where the market lies....maybe the market isn't in $12k 427ci Dart based Windsors.....

[Z-linkCobra]

The economy is really putting the pinch on a lot of things right now. The TOY funds are pretty low and people are just not spending the money like they used to. Ive been at it now for 2 yrs on my cobra...shes getting close but still a ways away. Im leaving the motor till the end. Im buying parts setting them aside and when everything else is done...then Ill build the motor.

I have a block for sale that in my mind should have sold along time ago...problem is no one has the money right now for something extravagent like what I have.

I also have a yates heads for sale...same deal. Gotta have the right buyer to.

Start bulding Sportmod motors for the circle track...thats a solid little market for ya. I know guys that build and sell one sometimes two a week. you gotta prove yourself buts there is a market for it.

Gene

[blykins]

You make many good points...especially about the economy.

[Cashburn]

You are on the right path. A straight up 351W that makes 400HP and is built right, perhaps a 383. Aluminum heads a plus. Present it, I am seeking something in that low range to make a few guys dreams come true.

[blykins]

C/B,

I just put together an engine/drivetrain package complete from pan to PCV, accessory belt to TKO 600 for Dana @ Shell Valley.

I'll forward the same thing to you and let you critique.

[Rick Parker]

Brent:

I think many with these cars fancy themselves as race car drivers and want all the HP possible. They read the threads touting 550-650 HP and feel that's the price of admission, not realizing the true "Cost" of an engine that highly strung. The fact is that well prepped bottom end using stock parts with good hardware and 400HP with a lumpy cam will serve 75% of those with these cars for a long time. You can't hold the pedal to the floor for more than about 10 seconds anyway.

[Excaliber]

Well I'm a big block kind a guy now, but I used to have the Excalibur with a stock 302. With a low rear end ratio and a low 1st gear ratio in the T5 trans that car was a "tire smoker" and reliable as all get out! Well eventually I wanted more horses, but for a guys first Cobra it was a pretty darn good call all around. I could smoke the tires till they melted and never worry about the motor.

...it was pretty much "done" at around a 100 mph though, not much left. But 0-60 was cool, a good street car. Seriously I've found 500 horse is about as much as I want or need. It's enough to really get serious, I could see 400 doing the trick with the right gearing, especially for a guys first Cobra, man thats plenty!

[patrickt]

A web cam would be cool. That way your customers could watch their engine being built.

[Dangerous Doug]

I suspect that a HP/Cost optimized solution would sell well. In other words, find the apex/peak of a HP and total engine cost curve and target that. Most everyone starts out wanting massive horsepower, but eventually logic sets in and they want the most bang for the buck. If that's a 375 hp 302 vs a 425 hp 331, then so be it. I think most of us that drive Cobra's aren't independently weathly, and the logic of a "smart deal" would override ego (or, so one would think...).

DD

[blykins]

Getting 400-450hp is easy with a Windsor. A 351W is probably one of the most versatile engines....easy to get power from, doesn't break the bank to build, and offers a good foundation for a nice sized stroker later on down the road if the customer desires. I'm working on some figures now on some builds. Maybe I'll post some things later on and get some opinions.

On another note:

Patrick....not such a good idea. I build in my shorts and dance to the 60's music that I like to play when I'm in the groove.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by blykins

Patrick....not such a good idea. I build in my shorts and dance to the 60's music that I like to play when I'm in the groove.

On the verge of TMI. No, I think that might have been over the edge.

[Keithc8]

Brent I did not know that you were in the engine building business now. Is this something that you do full time? You warranty the engines and dyno test them as well.
From a business stand point it is getting hard to compete with all you guys that farm out the machine work and build the engines in your garage in your free time. I assume that you still have a full time job and do this for extra money now. Maybe you have a complete shop now and do it full time. Trying to figure out what you are dojng now.
I have looked at this engine deal from about every angle. You can use cheap parts and cut corners and build some cheap engines so that you can get a guy in a car cheaper. Is it really worth saving 2000.00 3000.00 dollars on a 40,000.00 to 50,000.00 car build. I have even priced out some cheap stuff to dealers on here. Engines that have cheaper parts and that are not dyno tested but I wonder if it worth it in the long run.
I have about decided that there are to many guys that want to build engines or be part of the hobby till the going gets a little tough and then they fold up and are gone. I have been doing this for about 25 years and have seen many come and go.
There is no way that anyone trying to run a business can build a better engine for the prcie than what we do. I have better buying power than most and have some of the lowest over head in the country becaue of where I am located. You get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. I have to stand behind what I do and have a reputation to keep up so these cheap engines are just trouble waiting to happen.
I sometimes wonder if the consumer understands what he is getting whit some of the engines. Times are tough and dealers are starting to cut corners anyway that they can to sell a car. The bad taste of a cheap problematic engine last longer that 2000.00 to 3000.00 does.

Good luck, Keith Craft

[blykins]

I have my feet dangling in a few different pools Keith. B2 Motorsports, LLC has been in business for I guess about 2 years now. We started out advertising as a distributor for drivetrain components but I've been building engines behind closed doors just because I enjoy it so much. I've been sponsoring a couple of local 1/8th mile drag cars. One has one of my engines in it, the other buys all his drivetrain stuff from us.

Do I dyno? Always. Do I warranty? Well, I don't carry the insurance policies that a lot of engine builders carry, where if a motor pukes, they just file a claim and the insurance company pays for it. If something were to fail in an engine I assembled, it would be B2 Motorsports paying for it out of pocket.

I don't have a large shop with all state of the art equipment and a handful of employees, but I would consider myself an engine builder only and not a machinist. I do have a local machinist that I've known for years and I can work closely with him.

To answer another one of your questions, I will say that I am a Mechanical Engineer and I also work in the industry several days a week. The co-owner of B2 Motorsports also owns his own HVAC company. So we stay pretty busy.

Bottom line is that I always have my cell phone on me to take a phone call and emails are always answered in a timely manner. I feel that I have an excellent standing with customers and a great reputation among the internet forums which is a very tough venue these days. I try to treat people the way I'd want to be treated with fair prices, quick service, engines completed on time, etc. To me, it doesn't matter if you have a 20000 sqft shop out in the country, a rented one room shop in an industrial park, or a shop out behind your house as long as you deliver what you say you're going to deliver.

The whole point of this post was to get a feeling for what people want. Not everyone wants a $15000 engine. However, I'm not going to sell junk either, just for the sake of putting out an el-cheapo engine and getting business. What do people want to pay for a reliable engine with good name brand parts and value added services? And you're absolutely right Keith....people get what they pay for.

Thanks for the reply and for the token of good luck.

[IndyCobra]

As a recent and new Cobra enthusiast (and a small business owner), here's my take. I think the Engine Factory sells a lot of 351W, 400 HP motors so I think there's a market for it. You have the option of competing on price and/or options. I bought mine from Engine Factory because it was bolt on and turn on. I didn't need to add anything. But what I don't like is that they have limited options and were not totally familiar with my kit, a Lonestar. As a result, I had to buy a different filter assembly and I replaced the valve covers to match. Offer up some bling option packages for a reliable, consistent 351W assembly and I think you can compete for business.

The sweet spot is to make it easy for non-motorheads to get a reliable engine with the appearance package they want and know it will fit and be complete. Motorheads are going to do their own thing anyway. I differ in opinion with some on the list that everyone wants HP and can build a motor from a pile of iron. I doubt that. Most are weekend tinkerers who would rather drive something that will work and not leak oil than spend their winters (and usually their summers) fixing and rebuilding.

Just my $.02.

[blykins]

Randy, makes sense to me.

I try to offer a few value-added services that some other builders don't. I think that a builder can get large enough to lose focus of true customer appeal, just to move a lot of product and make a lot of money.

If I were a non-motorhead as you call it, I think I'd like to see a complete pictorial of how my engine went together, a complete build sheet with every spec available on it, and even a customized video of the engine on the dyno. I try to provide that with every engine I sell....from the 350 SBC's all the way up to the big inch Windsors and FE's.

[mln385]

Do you think also the current issue with emissions leagality might be part of the equastion? Some builders might be taking the 4.6 FI or the LS avenues in order to pass the smog tests.

More and more manufacturer's are basing their models for these types of motors.

[blykins]

LS engines are no problem here....although they are Chevys....

[lnfletcher]

Just my 2 cents but if you could put some examples of your builds on your webpage instead of facebook, with prices that you can build these for would go a long way in selling your engines.
I have found that a lot of people do their research at work were the social sites are blocked and don't bother to look it up at home.