Shelby vs. Kirkham

[fonti]

After being sure now that it will be an aluminum Cobra, my next dilemma is the difference between the "original" Shelby and Kirkham.

Not bodywise or concerning the quality of the build. No - what I would like to know is the "registration" of either cars.

- are there differences in the registration
- as far as I know are both registered in the SAAC, or am I wrong here?
- are the Shelby Cobras registered in another additional registry?

A gentleman offered a new built Kirkham bodied Cobra. I could choos how to register: as a Kirkham or a Shelby (difference of $ 10'000).

thank you for your continous support and help! Peter

[SunDude]

Both the Shelby continuation Cobras and Kirkham replicas are included in the SAAC world registry (in the 2008 edition at least).

[dlampe]

A Shelby is a Shelby and a Kirkham is a Kirkham. Two different cars. The Shelby will fetch a higher price. You don't have a choice on how to register them. Both are very nice. In fact many here would suggest that the Kirkham is nicer but it will never be a Shelby. (unless the old man sells you a vin tag!)

[Bill Wells]

Your profile says you live in Switzerland - I guess the real question before you buy any car in the USA, is what does your Government require for registratrion of a car from the USA ........and the differences , if any, between New or Used , ie, a used car perhaps over here already registered as a 1965 model (where legal) may or may not have an affect on how you get it registered there .. a thought anyway . The import duty is probably very on top of a pricey Kirkham or Shelby . Good Luck . Bill

[fonti]

Originally Posted by Bill Wells

Your profile says you live in Switzerland - I guess the real question before you buy any car in the USA, is what does your Government require for registratrion of a car from the USA ........and the differences , if any, between New or Used , ie, a used car perhaps over here already registered as a 1965 model (where legal) may or may not have an affect on how you get it registered there .. a thought anyway . The import duty is probably very on top of a pricey Kirkham or Shelby . Good Luck . Bill

yes, I'm living in Switzerland. There are no differences between Kirkham and Shelby Cobras, as long they are in aluminum.
We need a clear title and a document that shows a first immatriculation for both cars. And both have to be kind of stock looking (427 iron block, 4-speed would be great but also a 5 speed is ok, no billet stuff and so on...)

[RodKnock]

A Kirkham roller is $57,000 w/o paint and a few options not included. The Shelby roller is $105,000 with paint, according to REAL1 (Evan). With options and paint, the Kirkham roller would be around $70,000 using round numbers. So there's also an approximate $35,000 decision to made if bought new.

There's a used aluminum CSX on Cobra Country asking $133,000 with most Kirkhams priced below $100,000, so that premium seems to hold in the used market as well.

Just remember that Kirkham supplies their bodies to CSX, so the difference is essentially interior, suspension and brakes. I think, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jamo]

Kirkhams are better.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by fonti

And both have to be kind of stock looking...

I guess that means no minarets.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by fonti

After being sure now that it will be an aluminum Cobra, my next dilemma is the difference between the "original" Shelby and Kirkham.

Not bodywise or concerning the quality of the build. No - what I would like to know is the "registration" of either cars.

- are there differences in the registration
- as far as I know are both registered in the SAAC, or am I wrong here?
- are the Shelby Cobras registered in another additional registry?

A gentleman offered a new built Kirkham bodied Cobra. I could choos how to register: as a Kirkham or a Shelby (difference of $ 10'000).

thank you for your continous support and help! Peter

I don't know how you're going to get a choice - the VIN number is going to tell them who the manufacturer is.

[Paul F]

Kirkhams are made by the Kirkhams. I never met these two guys, but if you spend any time on this forum, you know they have a great deal of integrity, care very much about their customers, go out of their way to do things right, are honest, great engineers, really like what they are doing, are dedicated and focused on their product, make the best of the best, talk directly to anyone that posts on this forum, answer the phone themselves the first time you call. The list goes on and on.

I had a defective pin drive for my Compomotive wheels. Tom made me a custom set of pins out of proper material, properly heat treated, and at a most-reasonable price. Tom talked to me on the phone about it. He doesn't know me. I didn't buy a car or anything else from the Kirkhams. But he goes out of his way to fix a part on my roadster for me. I'm bloody proud just to have a set of pins from these guys. I'd really like to meet them and shake their hand some day. They are top-notch people.

As for the Shelby, I really don't know anything about it or the people that make it. All this based upon reading and participating on this forum.

I know what I would buy if I were in that class of roadster.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I don't know how you're going to get a choice - the VIN number is going to tell them who the manufacturer is.

In VIN No. Veritas?

(Sorry, couldn't pass up a straight line like that, moving on now...)

[fonti]

Originally Posted by Gunner

I guess that means no minarets.

Yeah...nobody gives a **** about this small country with mountains, chocolate, cows and watches... but the minarets makes us famous!!

Don't take that too serious...saw similar posts in other forums. We have over 20% inhabitants from out of contry, well...

BUT: we're here for talking Cobras! Are the Kirkhams and Shelbys registered in the same registry?

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by fonti

Yeah...nobody gives a **** about this small country with mountains, chocolate, cows and watches... but the minarets makes us famous!

I understand the context of the debate, believe me. Couldn't pass up the chance for a rimshot. Apologies to the cows and chocolate. I doubt the mountains care. I just asked my watch; it doesn't care.

BUT: we're here for talking Cobras! Are the Kirkhams and Shelbys registered in the same registry?

For reasons that make no particular sense to me, Kirkhams are included the Shelby registry.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fonti

Are the Kirkhams and Shelbys registered in the same registry?

Yes.

Why? Because "They (Kirkhams) can be used to complete the reconstruction of original serial numbered Cobras or to build totally new vehicles. They (the Kirkhams) also sensed the a market for parts which could be used to restore or reconstruct original Cobras because the specifications would be virtually identical." Quote taken from page 846 of the World Registry.

Shelby's CSX4000's and 6000's use Kirkham bodies. Just a an approximation, but of the 600 Kirkhams produced, 250 +/- were delivered to Shelby, at least that's what I remember the Kirkhams stating in a thread some time ago.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Kirkhams are made by the Kirkhams. I never met these two guys, but if you spend any time on this forum, you know they have a great deal of integrity, care very much about their customers, go out of their way to do things right, are honest, great engineers, really like what they are doing, are dedicated and focused on their product, make the best of the best, talk directly to anyone that posts on this forum, answer the phone themselves the first time you call. The list goes on and on.

I had a defective pin drive for my Compomotive wheels. Tom made me a custom set of pins out of proper material, properly heat treated, and at a most-reasonable price. Tom talked to me on the phone about it. He doesn't know me. I didn't buy a car or anything else from the Kirkhams. But he goes out of his way to fix a part on my roadster for me. I'm bloody proud just to have a set of pins from these guys. I'd really like to meet them and shake their hand some day. They are top-notch people.

As for the Shelby, I really don't know anything about it or the people that make it. All this based upon reading and participating on this forum.

I know what I would buy if I were in that class of roadster.

Besides all these excellent reasons Paul mentions above, I would like to add one of my main reasons for buying a Kirkham. Since the mid-90's, almost all Kirkhams have been built in Utah at their factory, except for those completed by their owners such as xl8or who built 326 in his garage. Consistency. Plus, their research and development are second to none.

[Gunner]

I'll make no argument to the contrary on Kirkham engineering or quality or conformance to originality in many respects. In fact, I'm thinking more and more that I really need to own one before I'm too feeble to buff aluminum.

I still don't see how even the most meticulous replica qualifies for the Shelby registry. As much as the continuation cars raise questions about the meaning of "real," they are at least officially numbered and blessed by St. Carroll. I find the inclusion of cars from ANY second maker... puzzling.

[RodKnock]

OK, would you believe (in my best Maxwell Smart voice) to sell a few more registries to the Kirkham owners at $200+ per copy?

[fonti]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Yes.

Why? Because "They (Kirkhams) can be used to complete the reconstruction of original serial numbered Cobras or to build totally new vehicles. They (the Kirkhams) also sensed the a market for parts which could be used to restore or reconstruct original Cobras because the specifications would be virtually identical." Quote taken from page 846 of the World Registry.

Shelby's CSX4000's and 6000's use Kirkham bodies. Just a an approximation, but of the 600 Kirkhams produced, 250 +/- were delivered to Shelby, at least that's what I remember the Kirkhams stating in a thread some time ago.

I know that the body is identical... but: why should I pay around 30K more for a Shelby compared to a Kirkham, when the qualiy, craftmanship and the "people behind Kirkham are at least as good as "Shelby"?

Sorry, but it's important for a "swiss farmer": both, the Kirkham and Shelby are registered in the same registry? They have just another VIN?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by fonti

Sorry, but it's important for a "swiss farmer": both, the Kirkham and Shelby are registered in the same registry? They have just another VIN?

fonti -- From a purely mechanical standpoint, the Kirkham is a better made car. The only advantage that an aluminum Shelby has over a KMS is the name "Shelby." If that's not worth the price differential (and it's not to a lot of people that can easily afford it), then your decision is an easy one.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by fonti

why should I pay around 30K more for a Shelby compared to a Kirkham, when the qualiy, craftmanship and the "people behind Kirkham are at least as good as "Shelby"?

This has been hashed over many times, never to anyone's satisfaction. There are one or two ardent "just being called Shelby is worth the premium" spokesbeings herein. Another plurality is that quality counts but the Shelby name is meaningless on any newly built car.

The Shelby name is worth a $20-30k premium, all other things being equal, but there is no evidence that it will ever increase the long-term value by any but a proportionate amount. For some, it's important to have that CS stamp of approval. For others (most of us) we'll live, hangdog, knowing Unca Shelby wouldn't take tea with us.