Jack Roush Crashes Plane in WI

[Tommy]

You're right in thinking that there is only one pilot-in-command and he decides who is flying the airplane. But a good co-pilot can and should call out problems like low airspeed and insufficient traffic spacing. I'll add that if I were a co-pilot, I would physically intervene if it appeared the PIC's actions were about to kill me. After all, I'd rather be a live co-pilot without a job than a dead man.

[Jerry Clayton]

What may come as a surprise to many----a zero-zero approach and landing is probably a safer enviroment than the VFR multi a/c, multiple runway, all experience levels that were operating that day.

Speaking of Sully and the river---everything went right that day---ferries just leaving the dock arrived right away---if they had been a few minutes earlier----a/c and ferry pax would died

[Tommy]

This is a follow up to my earlier comment.

It can be challenging for a co-pilot to know when to intervene when the PIC is flying. This true story may give some of you a feeling for what can happen.

I was evaluating an instructor pilot in the twin engine T-38 jet trainer. I was the PIC but I was to play the part of his student pilot. He was to decide when to intervene with verbal suggestions, verbal commands or taking control of the airplane. Our very first maneuver after takeoff was to come back around for a simulated single engine heavy weight landing. This type of approach and landing is challenging because there is very little excess power available. Consequently, the keys to a good approach are to never let the airplane get lower or slower than desired. I was flying (as the student) and had it in my mind to do the best landing I could. Abeam the field I advised the instructor that I was reducing power on the left engine to idle to simulate its failure. Everything felt normal as we gradually slowed, descended to our final approach altitude (500’ AGL) and lowered the landing gear and some flaps. As we approached our fully configured final approach speed of about 160 knots, I pushed the power on the “good” engine up to the usual setting of 93%. A few seconds later I noticed our speed had dropped about 5 knots so I pushed the power up to 97%. Odd. Usually 93% works. A few seconds later we were 10 knots slow and had lost about 50’ of altitude. I pushed the power to Military (i.e., 100% RPM but without afterburners). I glanced down again to see we were 15 knots slow and 100’ low. I pushed the throttle on the “good” engine to Max (full afterburner) and started checking the engine gauges. Damn! The nozzle on the “good” engine was not responding. Even though the engine RPM was at 100%, the failed nozzle had reduced our effective power to about 85% and precluded the afterburner from working. We were now 20 knots slow and 150’ low. I grabbed the left throttle and shoved it to Max afterburner. A moment later I felt the reassuring push from the left engine as it kicked in. I pressed the mic button to declare an emergency and announce my intention to make a full stop landing. The rest of the approach and landing were uneventful.

Back on the ground I asked the instructor why he never said a word to the “student” as the airplane got lower and slower. He explained that if he had been with a real student, he would have intervened when the airplane was 5 knots slow. But because he knew I was really an experienced pilot, he assumed I would never fly the airplane into a situation that was genuinely dangerous. He thought I was deliberately flying low and slow, and he trusted me to not let things get out of hand. This tendency to trust the more experienced pilot has gotten more than a few crews into trouble. From that point on I told every pilot who flew with me the same thing: I will not deliberately do anything that will make you feel uncomfortable. If you start to feel uncomfortable, please say something because I’m likely not doing it on purpose.

[Jerry Clayton]

An old saying for co pilots " don't get caught dead setting on your hands"

[vector1]

tommy, you can be my wing man anyday

[tcrist]

You got it Tommy. Really not trying to start any crap here.

[Jerry Clayton]

Do a google search N6JR-----

I'm not speaking with any authority, I'm not withholding info

I have many years experience and from the pics I saw on here----he did not have landing flaps down---was he going around and had engines not spool up because of high angle of attack and poor airflow to the turbines???? I don't know---did he just not have enough flaps down for the speed he was flying???
We went thru constant checks and training with multiply failures stacked on to us---crew concept was good deal of it---Jack had no crew---Jack had a high speed a/c mixed into traffic much slower than him, Jack
recognized that there was a CONFLICT but didn't reslove it by going around--he was ( by everything apparent at this time) behind the airplane--He walked away so it was a good landing

After the prelim report you won't hear anything out of the FAA or NTSB for months, maybe year or so

just keep checking NTSB for accident info---

Want some interesting reading??? look up and read about the Hendricks accident a few years ago---see how far they were behind the a/c

Jerry

[tcrist]

Jerry,

What is that search? The plane id number?

[Don]

http://www.avweb.com/news/airventure..._203026-1.html

In the above site: Related Content:

" Click here to hear the audio exchanges between Roush (identified as "6JR" and "premier") and OSH controllers at the time of the crash."

[Jerry Clayton]

Right

Registration ID number on the tail of the aircraft

[tcrist]

Thanks Jerry.

From the link that Don provided it sounded like the tower (or whoever it was) new more than the PIC did about his own plane, weather he should of been ok with the instructions.
Jerry, could you tell us what they were questioning about the instructions and weather Jack should have been ok with it?

Couldn't the tower have over-rid Jack if they did not think the landing was safe?

Why would they identify Jacks plane as 6JR and Premier at the same time? Is that normal? Seems a bit confusing to me but I am not a pilot.

[vector1]

jack identified his a/c as 6jr, the tower called him premier, that is normal, if you listen you can hear the tower call another a/c a "lake", that is another type of a/c.

6jr asks if it is going to be ok, tower says yeah, 6jr says i don't think so, tower says use caution for a/c on the upwind, sounds like there was an a/c taking off ahead of 6jr but the tape doesn't go back that far. possibly 6jr was coming in a little fast and cut a really short base leg. but if that was the case it would have been safer to land then attempt a go around. also possible 6jr tried to slow too much turning final for the a/c on upwind.

just speculation, there is quite a bit more going on then appears.

[jmimac351]

Can someone please call Jack Roush and have him clear all of this up?

[tcrist]

Thanks Vector1,
I had it all garbled up in my head. I did not know who was saying what. It is all gibberish to me.

So when 6JR says "I don't think so" was it too late at that time? It only seemed like it was a couple of seconds later and they were telling other aircraft to go around.


I tried to call Jack and the phone number that he gave me must have been the wrong one. Imagine that.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Photos of the Roush crash on the jalopy journal site:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...74989&page=326

[tcrist]

The military is going to say what they want to make it look like they had nothing to do with it.

Military pilots are trained and told to make the planes do everything they can get out of them. Even if it over steps the max design of the plane. Military pilots have been doing that forever.

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by tcrist

The military is going to say what they want to make it look like they had nothing to do with it.

Military pilots are trained and told to make the planes do everything they can get out of them. Even if it over steps the max design of the plane. Military pilots have been doing that forever.

I never heard any of my commanders express that opinion. I did have one commander who said it was up to each pilot to decide which regs to follow and which to disregard. He lost his command after two of his lieutenants died while performing prohibited maneuvers. That certainly isn't the attitude I expressed when I commanded a squadron of forty pilots. Perhaps your military flying experience was different.

[scaffold]

any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

scaffold

[timsullivan]

Having walked away from destroying two planes due to his flying incompetence Roushe should clearly quit while he's ahead. But I doubt the stupid SOB will.

[Keithc8]

If you can not pull over and change a flat tire on it I do not need to be trying to run it or want to. Just feel a little safer that close to the ground. I would quite while I was ahead if I was him as well or get a qualified pilot to fly me.