Crate engines to assemble yourself

[bobcowan]

PAW did that for years. I bought a couple of engines from them. I enjoy doing my own assembly.

But rebuilding an old engine is kind of a pain - tear down, cleaning, inspection, multiple trips to the machine shop, etc.

[olddog]

After remodeling a couple houses, I can tell you that I can do a better job finishing drywall than most professionals, however it takes me way way too long to make any money at it. You also learn from some mistakes along the way.

I'm sure as a novice engine builder, I would take way too long, but I would check everything twice. The risk is not recognizing a problem or not having the knowledge when doing certain steps. Some things only experience can bring.

I do things myself for three reasons:
1) save money.
2) I want to make sure it is done right.
3) I want the satisfaction of having done it myself.

I would recommend to Keith that he build into the cost structure to ship a top notch engine assembly book, accompanied with a video of him doing the actual assembly of the parts that he just shipped. Point out all the little things that the average Joe might miss and stress the really important things.

I have rebuilt countless small engines, and a few car engines. All long ago. I have read many books on engine building. I actually understand many things today that I did not know, when I built those engines. All ran without an issue. If the machining is correct (ring gaps included) and the clearances are right, it really does not take a rocket scientist to torque bolts in the proper pattern.

PS
A lot of people would buy the video, with no plans to build any engine. Write your own book and make some videos. You may make more money selling them than building engines. I will be your editor if you like. Most of the books I have read sure did lack a good editor.

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by Wbulk

It would be interesting to know how many that have a lot of experience building engines are for it, vs. those that have never built and engine are against it. The market is with those that have the skills and experience.
Regardless, I would like to see a list of parts "kits" for various engines and rpm ranges that could be purchased. It could also state expected HP and torque for the various rpm range uses.

Well at least for myself, I have built engines off and on since I was in my teens, and as I originally stated, I think it would be a mistake.

I have a good friend in Portland that owns and operates an automotive machine shop and I'm well aware of some of the issues he has had with inexperienced customers screwing up engines. Some of them have even been complete engines, and they still mess them up. Nothing worse on a new engine than someone not knowing how to install the distributer and set the timing and then spending hours cranking the engine over for that time and wiping all of the assembly lube off of the cam and lifters. Or those that forget to add oil to it. Some of the stories are unbelievable.

[Wbulk]

Those type of issues happen every day all over the country. People buying parts and don't know how to install them correctly. Some are successful, others mess it up. A mans got to know his limitations. Northern Auto has been selling stock and performance kits for years. I think if Keith wants to put parts kits together to make a profit and there is money to be made in it, then you don't need a skills test to sell the parts. If there was Auto Zone and the others wouldn't be in business. The niche here is putting the right parts together to make a kit that "builders" would buy. The machine shop I have been using for 25 years does this day in and day out but I don't think they have the performance knowledge with certain engines that Keith has.
Ya, I am a die hard DIY guy.

Comp Cams does have a Chevy SB build CD. It would be good to see someone do a performance build CD on the most common used engines. Most of the how to performance checking clearances are in the back of Comp Cams Catalog.

[FFR428]

I like the idea of going there in person and being part of the build. Controled enviroment conditions and you'd certainly learn and come away with a valueable experience. To take things even further maybe expand into a Hot Rod engine build school of some sort down the road if things really take off. Hands on is a great way to learn. The DIY package is a good idea and pretty much what you get buying parts piece meal anyway. Could be a bit of a hassle if things are missed but worth a try. Maybe try a few beta builders to test the waters. Discount their kits providing they document the entire process with pics and summary. Difficulty levels too. Keith I like your thinking. All the years I've been a member here you've backed up your engines, parts and service 100%. Even some you had nothing to do with you made right. That speaks volumes right there. I like the ideas.

[JoeT]

Keith,
what an interesting idea. . . I'm going to be upgrading my engine factory 351w probably next year. Knowing my limitations there is no way I'd attempt to put one of your motors together myself (as much as I'd love to). However, if you had some type of program where I could fly in and work side by side with a professional that could "teach" while we assemble, I'd be interested.

Now what would that be worth to me? I'm not sure. The satisfaction of "doing it" with my own hands has some value.

Now thinking about it, I don't know the answer. . . How long does it take one of your guys to assemble an engine? now add an inexperienced person, does the time double? triple? so your labor has doubled (or tripled) for that assembly. I don't know what your guys make (nor should I) but would there be any additional costs? is there an insurance risk by having a non employee in the shop working?

Just some things to think about

[madmaxx]

I see the vulnerability for any engine builder, is part integrity. It looks good with the naked eye but when you put it in service was there a prexisting crack, flaw etc. I know I will get flamed for this but outside Apple everybodies quality SUKSSSSSSS, lol. There are more quality issues today than ever before, unless you pentrant check all you components, hardness test you wont know. Even if you do the aforementioned how do you know the surface finish is correct, the depth of hardness.

If I built engines they would cost about $25K for a 427 stroker. I would have to charge twice to cover the warranty work. POS manufacturer warrant the part, what a joke, let them warrant the labor and I bet their quality improves.

[67FEfastback]

I'd say that your assembly instructions would need to include an emphasis on a clean assembly area, specialized tools required, how to check critical clearances.

For me, I'd say that a late night online tech line or emal form would have to be a must. Most people work during the day, and play after work.

How much money are we saving over the assembled engine?

[tcrist]

I don't think anyone's insurance company would approve a non-employee to be there working / assembling.

Also, what if the owner doing the assembling were to drop say a a part, say a piston, cam, or even the block. Who would then be responsible. If they got hurt, that would be a whole now can of worms.

As mentioned, the time it takes. You tie up a employee for two to three times (or more) as long to do this job. It would be different for every engine depending on how much the owner knows about mechanics. It could be like teaching someone that doesn't even know what a socket is, basic automotive technology. You could not even quote the cost to the customer/owner.

JMO, of course.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tcrist

You could not even quote the cost to the customer/owner.

Yeah, you could... but it would be expensive. FWIW, some of my contemporaries have opted for what they call dream/fantasy vacations. For example, you fly down with one of the Major League teams, you get to hang out with them, take batting practice with them, and pretend you're a major league ball player. It is not cheap, and you gotta be a real big fan to go for it. I could see Keith doing the same thing with one of his engine builds. You would fly down, hang out at the shop, participate in the engine build, take a boatload of pictures/videos, and it would add maybe a third more to the build cost. Frankly, I think it would be cool to do, but he's catering to a very slim market. To a lesser extent, most guys that have ERA do their car fly up there and wander around, gawk, ask dumb questions, gawk, make stupid jokes, gawk, and then fly back home. I'm sure they're thinking to themselves "man, there's somebody with more money than sense" and I think ERA just wraps that nuisance in to the price....

[tcrist]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Yeah, you could... but it would be expensive. FWIW, some of my contemporaries have opted for what they call dream/fantasy vacations. For example, you fly down with one of the Major League teams, you get to hang out with them, take batting practice with them, and pretend you're a major league ball player. It is not cheap, and you gotta be a real big fan to go for it. I could see Keith doing the same thing with one of his engine builds. You would fly down, hang out at the shop, participate in the engine build, take a boatload of pictures/videos, and it would add maybe a third more to the build cost. Frankly, I think it would be cool to do, but he's catering to a very slim market. To a lesser extent, most guys that have ERA do their car fly up there and wander around, gawk, ask dumb questions, gawk, make stupid jokes, gawk, and then fly back home. I'm sure they're thinking to themselves "man, there's somebody with more money than sense" and I think ERA just wraps that nuisance in to the price....

Ok, your are correct, if you quoted it like the customer had no automotive experience at all.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tcrist

Ok, your are correct, if you quoted it like the customer had no automotive experience at all.

I think you'd have to do it that way. Even those of us who are "pretty good" would still slow the process down and need to be double checked. I can hear it now "Pat, are you finished torquing those head bolts? You did it in three increments, right? And in the correct pattern? Uhhh, I better double check you just to be sure...."

[Xavier]

I like the idea, I would like to do it - to save some money, but more importantly, to really understand the internal workings of the engine and get a great engine. Right now, I do everything else and that means a lot to me, but it would even mean more to do the engine work. I wish I knew what a lot of others did about the internal mechanics of the engine. I know its complicated.

There are things you can do to limit the possibility of someone doing some damage to your reputation, and I think through some clever offerings you can keep the price point at a place that makes sense for the offer, but not so low you have every guy in the world doing it (you don't want every person wanting to do it). People who are willing to half-a$$ anything to save a nickel.

Some ideas from other people in far different industries I know, who do something similar, but make changes to reduce the risk to reputation;

- Keep the price point at a level that makes sense, but keeps the more risky clients away. You do not want to make the KC package the "cheap" package, this should just be a more economical means of building your own KC.
- Have a mandatory class at a high price, which will be reimbursed at the time of your order. Something you must pass and show comprehension on. This obviously does 3 things; 1- It keeps the rats away. The rats are not going to pay for a class. Some of them already know it all so, why go to a class. 2- It makes certain that you know that your team of a credited teachers (east coast, west coast etc.) have validated and have qualified the client. The very act that they paid $1,000 for the class, showed that they are serious, they give a damn and they are probably are likely to listen. In short, the class itself is some sort of a qualification. If the certified trainer sees the student does not know the very basics of mechanics, the client is excused, and given his or her money back. 3- Its a great thing for the client. For me, I at last have the option (since I failed to take advantage of it in High School) to not only get a basic or advanced lesson of the inner workings and build up of the engine, but I am going to get this from the company who is creating the engine components. This is great, I am not only getting education - but I am getting it from the people I am buying the engine from so I do not have to worry about "but he said I need to do this", "well, he should not have told you that, sorry".

I can see some creative thinking making this work - satelite certified offices in 3 or 4 different locations throughout the US where you can get your training (only done several times a year to get enough people to sign up), to order your engine and components and have reimbursed training with the order. You can keep on going with this idea, and use some "options" as training as a cost center "Advanced training in Arkansas" etc., however, per the discussion I am merely thinking of a way you can limit the persons who would greatly add risk to the new offering.

A "mandatory" basic internet class can be done before the sit-down class, this would validate that a person, before even spending $1k on he class has the basic understanding of what compression means, what a hammer looks like, whats a spark plug, etc. "Once you pass this mandatory 50 question test, we will be glad to schedule your formal training session."

So not only do I get a KC engine which I normally cannot afford, but I can say I built it, I finally understood it and I walked away with an life-time education?

Where do I sing up?

[tcrist]

To be honest, I don't think it would cost you less. I think it would cost you more as far as cash output. But the experience that you would get just might be worth it.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tcrist

To be honest, I don't think it would cost you less. I think it would cost you more as far as cash output. But the experience that you would get just might be worth it.

Agreed. The only way it could cost you less would be if you handled the tasks that took a good bit of time, but that were instantly "checkable" when they were done. I can't think of too many of those. It would be something like dialing in the bellhousing though. "OK Terry, you've been dialing in that bellhousing for the last six hours and now you say it's good. Lemmee just double check the runout and if you're right then we're good to go."

[Rick Parker]

GM is allowing Corvette ZR-1 buyers the option at time vehicle is ordered pay an additional $5000 to go to the factory and assemble their ZR-1 engine along side the person that would normally do it.

[olddog]

The problem with the class idea is that once you certify that someone is capable of doing the work, then you take on liability. If improper assembly happens, the person can now claim that you trained and certified them.

I think Keith is trying to tap into the DIY guy who is not going to pay him to assemble the engine anyway. Now the DIY guy is going to use a machine shop to do some work, and he is going to buy parts. So sell him the parts and do the necessary machine work for him and offer it in a convenient package. I don't see how selling parts in a package adds any liability. You certify that the parts were in specification, when it left the shop. You have no control over shipping, and it is the responsibility of the purchaser to inspect for shipping damage. You state you have no control over the assembly process and the purchaser assume all responsibility for assembly. My suggestion of a book and video was to do two things. One, reduce the number of DIY disasters, and two, have the moral high ground that you went the extra mile to give the DIY guy the information he needed. If he fails to take advantage of it, too bad for him.

The option should not be designed to decrease the number of people who would pay to have a complete engine built.

[tcrist]

I thought that the whole assembly idea was to have the purchaser go to KC and assembly their own engine. Then the complete engine that they assembled would be shipped to them by themselves. That would leave KC out of it at that point

Am I wrong in that? Maybe my brain is thinking in the wrong direction.

Maybe when/if KC has the open house, hands on assembly of an engine could be one of their classes/shows. It does not have to be a customers engine. Just any engine with showing all of the assembly including dyno. Make a CD of that and give it with all DIY kits purchased.

Just a thought rambling through that empty space between my ears.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tcrist

I thought that the whole assembly idea was to have the purchaser go to KC and assembly their own engine.

The margins on selling parts are razor thin... and I swear I think Lykins will live with a 1% profit margin. If Keith wants to do something different it should be in line with Rick P.'s Corvette post. If guys really want it, they'll pay for it -- it would be a fun time and you get a cool engine to take home with you. But in exchange for the babysitting that you'd get from Keith, you're going to have to pay a premium. There's a certain segment of our community that would do that though.

[olddog]

I re-read Keith's posts. Maybe I'm off base (post #37). Keith did want to hear ideas and opinions.

It is obvious that there is a wide array of ideas, and a lot of concerns about opening a can of worms. I would say post 37 is my opinion or advise to Keith. I should not have put words in Keith's mouth, or stated what Keith meant. My bad.