How do you handle the questions?

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Oey vey. You really should change your user name to "Curmudgeon"

You also need to go back and "null and void" your above strained "analysis" (you really struggled with this one didn't you. Must have been painful ) which is laced with "assumptions", "I don't know" and statements of the obvious such as the gem that a watch is not a car.

Please explain to us how a gap in manufacturing "null and voids" the analogy. If Tom Kirkham shut production down and decided to manufacture duck decoys for 10 years and then decided to come back and restart Kirkham with new employees now having to source parts and components from new sources and use German aluminum and starting making Kirkham Cobras again would they not be real Kirkham Cobras?

Also, also to follow your logic (if we can call it that) new Indian Motorcycles are not Indian Motorcycles just the originals from 50 years ago?

The higher price that people will pay more for the older classic ones is based on rarity and the fact they are part of a set definite pool. People also pay more for new Rolexs from Rolex than fake Rolexs from the guy on the street in NYC don't they. People also pay more for current series Shelby Cobras from SAI then they pay for an LA Exotic, Unique etc.. that are fake Shelby Cobras.

Maybe you need to stop "squinting your eyes so hard" and open them.

You mean the Rolex I paid $20 for in Times Square in NYC is a fake? It's not worth a gazillion dollars as a collectible? I'm crushed...

[Joe's Garage]

Sounds like we need to get the courts involved to make a decision on this.
WAIT, they already have!

Originally Posted by Paul F

Why does this question give people so much angst? We've discussed this a few times. The answer is 'It is a kit car'. I know you don't think so, but if it isn't a 196x Cobra, it is a kit car; at least in the eyes of the person that is asking (this includes Shelby continuation cars per judges Rogers, Walsh and Bergsman),,,

[Dimis]

You boys have really complicated something simple...

Anyone trying to pass of a NON-1960's Cobra as the REAL McCOY is being purposefully disingenuous, or out right fraudulent.

Leaving people hanging with idea that they are in the presence of the Real McCoy tells me more about that person than it does about the car...


PS: Bill - Its always DUCK season!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

PS: Bill - Its always DUCK season!

Then you can't be a liberal, since liberals won't harm animals.

[Bernica]

Analogies are the comparison of facts supposedly in evidence, right?
FWIW, my license plate is an old black one and says CSX XXXX.

[Paul F]

Judge Walsh wrote, from a trademark lawsuit back in 2010 before judges Rogers, Walsh, and Bergsman:

"In the early 1990s, Shelby also began to produce
“continuation” models or his particular replicas of
original Cobras, including the Cobra 427 S/C, also
principally in the form of kits."

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Analogies are the comparison of facts supposedly in evidence, right?
FWIW, my license plate is an old black one and says CSX XXXX.

1. No
2. Change your plate it's mis-leading.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Judge Walsh wrote, from a trademark lawsuit back in 2010 before judges Rogers, Walsh, and Bergsman:

"In the early 1990s, Shelby also began to produce
“continuation” models or his particular replicas of
original Cobras, including the Cobra 427 S/C, also
principally in the form of kits."

Fascinating. He "wrote" that? So tell us what does that mean that he "wrote" that? Hint.. See one of my previous posts.

Still missing the main crucial point. you need to read the Registry.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

You boys have really complicated something simple...

Anyone trying to pass of a NON-1960's Cobra as the REAL McCOY is being purposefully disingenuous, or out right fraudulent.

Leaving people hanging with idea that they are in the presence of the Real McCoy tells me more about that person than it does about the car...


PS: Bill - Its always DUCK season!

Here I'll help since the above needs refining to be completely fair.

1. You are being disingenuous if you "intentionally" pass of a Continuation series Cobra as an original series. If license plates are a measure my plate accurately states what the car is factually and legally. (Hey PaulF, you need to find the decision where the courts ruled/held as opposed to merely "wrote" (hint again) only SAI may legally sell, use, mark, tag or otherwise designate their cars as "Cobras", Shelbys or Shelby Cobras.)
My plate doesn't say "65COBRA", "ORIG427", "BAD65", "65SN8K" or some such other actual intentionally misleading combination attached to a car for instance that is a fake in every respect.

2. You are being intentionally misleading by passing of a non Shelby Cobra off as a "Cobra". It is in reality no such thing. It has as much in common with a Shelby Cobra as the model of one on my desk. The word Cobra should be prefaced with the word "pretend" "fake" or some other synonym with those cars. By a quick perusal of the never ending "Cool" license plate threads we have a lot of actual intentionally misleading conduct going on here.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Sounds like we need to get the courts involved to make a decision on this.
WAIT, they already have!

Still lost I see. See the above.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

A "fact" is there are about 1,000 original Shelby Cobras, though not all exist today.

Fast forward to the mid-1990's and a few people got together and decided to call the modern Shelby Cobra, a "Continuation Series." Why? They didn't think "true replica" would sell cars. That's in the SAAC Registry, which you choose to ignore or maybe you didn't read.

Yes, I've read the Registry. For marketing purposes, your car is called a "continuation series." That's not a fact IMO. I choose to call it a replica. Shelby and SAAC consist of humans and these humans, wrongly I might add, decided to put the modern Shelby replica in the Registry and call them Continuation Cobras. What you call a "fact" is just a matter of opinion by a few select humans, and that "fact" (opinion in my world) can change in time or at least I hope.

As for labels and labeling people, call me anything you want, just don't call me "Shirley."

Just stop calling folks "lost," "misguided," "curmudgeon" or whatever insult you want to hurl at people.

Maybe I call people "clowns"? Better?

You obviously are just citing the part you want without finishing the rest of it on the issue including the "definitional" section.

If people are misguided they are misguided. That's how I'll call it. They'll have to deal with it even if it hurts their little feelings, but again if it helps I can add an adjective like "clown" first. You seem to have no issue with that.

You are also continuing to miss the crucial point and issue.

[trularin]

This just does not end.

For those with the notion - everyone's poop has odor.

May I propose the mud ( or poop ) slinging be civil?

There are people that are fixed in their minds that a Rolex is something more than just a time piece. There are also people that see the same watch as a indicator of time.

These are what make us - US. The wisdom to see this is in each member of this club.

I will get off the soap box - this seems to be a "touchy" subject ALL the FRIGGIN TIME.

Tru

[mrmustang]

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You are also continuing to miss the crucial point and issue.

Is your point that the SAAC Cobra Registrar, Ned Scudder, noted Cobra historian and Cobra expert, called the Shelby Continuation Cobra a REPLICA? I happen to agree with his opinion.

Evan, you own a gorgeous Shelby Cobra replica, which was built roughly 30-35 years after the original Cobras.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Is your point that the SAAC Cobra Registrar, Ned Scudder, noted Cobra historian and Cobra expert, called the Shelby Continuation Cobra a REPLICA? I happen to agree with his opinion.

Evan, you own a gorgeous Shelby Cobra replica, which was built roughly 30-35 years after the original Cobras.

I agree. It's a technically a true replica of the original Series Cobra. No argument. See Websters. It is also a real or genuine Shelby Cobra in its own right. I'll not only cite the World Registry of Cobras & GT40s but guess what...... we can also through in the Federal decisions (which PaulF and JoesGarage consider determinative as deciding these issues) dealing with the Shelby litigation on trade dress and trade mark as supporting precedent in the "holdings" and "findings" not just mere "dicta". Thanks for reminding me PaulF and JoesGarage!!!

An LA Exotics for example does not even rise to the level of "replica" if we are using the predominant definition as contained in Websters as used by the Registry.

[REAL 1]

JoesGarage: What Shelby do you own? Waiting.

[Paul F]

Judge Walsh further wrote:

"Furthermore, we find no meaningful
distinction between what applicant often refers to as a
continuation, on the one hand, and a replica, on the other
hand. Both applicant’s “continuations” and the third-party
replicas are being sold principally in kit form. It is
evident that both are intended to replicate the original
1960s Cobras, including the Cobra 427 S/C."

and

"In 1992, Shelby began to produce “continuations” or
replicas of the original Cobras, including the Cobra 427
S/C, primarily in kit form. A kit typically includes a chassis and body,
but the purchaser is then required to assemble and complete
the car with a transmission and engine and possibly other
parts. Mr. Shelby identified the replicas of the Cobra 427
S/C with the designation CSX 4000.
Shelby has sold the Cobra replica kits for $50,000 to
$150,000."

and

"It is one thing to recognize the legendary status of
Mr. Shelby and the original Cobras, including the 427 S/C,
and quite another to assert that purchasers and potential
purchasers view Cobra continuations or replicas, sold
primarily as kits, which employ the Cobra 427 S/C Design as
coming from a single source. The fact that Cobra replicas,
sold primarily as kits, which employ the 427 S/C Design,
have been sold by numerous third parties for more than
three decades, including between 2002 and 2009, precludes
us from drawing that conclusion. Accordingly, we find
applicant’s evidence based on media coverage of Mr. Shelby
and all of the Cobras not probative of the issue of
acquired distinctiveness."

All Cobras are kits. If someone were producing a Cobra today, it would have all of the required equipment such as 5 mph bumpers, air bags, and catalytic converters.

The VIN of a Shelby is indistinguishable from a Factory Five or a '34 Ford coupe kit; having been assigned by the state instead of the manufacturer.

But none of that matters. What matters is that your Cobra has a genuine CSX nameplate. If money and/or pride in ownership is what matters, we can all see the recognition that CSX nameplate gets at the auction block. It's a kit. But you can be proud to be one of the few that have a genuine Shelby.

Its been fun once again to kick this around. One day we will meet and I'll get a look at your beautiful Cobra.

Cheers

[Al G]

Originally Posted by Paul F

The VIN of a Shelby is indistinguishable from a Factory Five or a '34 Ford coupe kit; having been assigned by the state instead of the manufacturer.

Wrong. My VIN, recognized and recorded by the Commonwealth of Virginia, is CSX6045, taken directly from the MSO and manufacturer's data plate. No state-issued VIN.

[Paul F]

Good to know. I only checked a couple of states before I wrote that.

[ChiChris]

My IL title had my CSX number listed as the VIN and listed as a 1965 Shelby Cobra.