Cobra Front to rear weight balance

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

I have said many times before, and I will say it again.

The throttle is a rheostat, not an on/off switch.

To me the greatest and most exhilarating thing is to be able to press down on that throttle pedal and know that I’m right on the limit. Be it in a corner or on a straight it’s just a terrific feeling.

So personally I don’t feel I can have too much horsepower. You just need to learn to use the maximum that you can for the moment.

Was going to jump back in say about the same thing.I have what I want in my car because at the time was the best way to go for the budget I had.Driving these things to the limit,mine and the cars,is the biggest part of the allure,the other is it's looks and reputation.

[elmariachi]

Sorry in advance for answering the OP's question....

My car has a cast iron 427FE with iron heads, dual quads, TKO 600, Ford 9" rear. Balance is 51 front 49 rear with me in it and a 1/2 tank gas.

And I agree with Silverback's comment about "being right on the edge."

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Sorry in advance for answering the OP's question....

My car has a cast iron 427FE with iron heads, dual quads, TKO 600, Ford 9" rear. Balance is 51 front 49 rear with me in it and a 1/2 tank gas.

You need to put on a few lbs then. Think about hitting Burger King tonight for a Triple Whopper with cheese.

[ERA Chas]

Subtle things make a difference in weight and mass location. All aluminum engines vs. all iron or iron/ally combinations. My aluminum rad is 1/2 the weight of my old copper brass. Battery location-trunk or footbox?
Every single one of our cars is unique in the equipment content and the location of key items. 350 wheel HP is more than adequate for a serious race car so it's not necessarily the 600 HP gang that wins hands down.
So a blanket statement like SB's are better roadracers than BB's is BS. It's the setup of each individual car that makes one or the other produce better lap times. And that's omitting the driver skill factor.
Here's what it would take to find merit in a SB vs. BB racing evaluation-in my opinion.
Two identical rollers must be sourced from a manufacturer.
For the sake of discussion, ERA or KMP. Both chassis are available to carry SB's and BB's. Each chassis should get one type of engine-an FE and a 9.5 deck Windsor. (An 8.2 deck would make the weight difference greater but have trouble matching the FE's torque). They should have iron blocks, aluminum heads and waterpumps and carry a single 4 bbl. They should each produce the same power output-let's say 500 FWHP. The engine's location should be determined by the location of the trans mount on the chassis. That keeps their mass consistent in each car. Chassis should have same gearbox, driveshaft and rear gear. They should be weighed with corner scales and carry the same brakes and tires. The only difference so far is that the Windsor will weigh maybe 40 pounds less than our sample FE.
Then they should do timed laps over a technical course like Watkins Glen (I think Lime Rock may be too short a distance with less variety of straights and corners). I'm sure Miller or Barber would do nicely too. They should be driven by two Cobra-experienced guys like McMahon and 3170 (there are plenty of others-I'm just talkin' here). Drivers should do fixed number of hot laps then switch cars. And do it often enough to get meaningful data.
My guess is that there won't be a significant difference in lap times and that subjectively, each driver will not find a 'nose heavy' (understeering pig) in the two.
Fire away.

[Jerry Clayton]

It'll come down to brakes and flywheel weight--both of those factors will overshadow the minute amount of weight bias of 40# between the sb windsor and bb fe and roll center ht

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

It'll come down to brakes and flywheel weight--both of those factors will overshadow the minute amount of weight bias of 40# between the sb windsor and bb fe and roll center ht

I think so too. Brakes being the same equipment but stopping a fractionally lighter package won't matter much at all.
That's why I contend the whole weight bias thing is BS-unless you pit an all iron 385 against an aluminum 302.

[Jerry Clayton]

even the camshaft for my engine is rifle drilled

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

even the camshaft for my engine is rifle drilled

So maybe 385 pounds and 600 HP n/a?

[Jerry Clayton]

I'm planning on Bonneville

So I'm not so concerned about weight bias, its going to be more of an aero game

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Yup:

Final 2009 OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car Results:
2009 OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car
1st Place: Bruce Cambern, ’66 Cobra
2nd Place: Ryan Matthews, ’69 Camaro
3rd Place: Mark Stielow, ’69 Camaro

Baer Brakes Speed Stop Challenge
1st Place: Bruce Cambern, ’66 Cobra
2nd Place: Bruce Cambern, ’66 Cobra

Ridetech Street Challenge Autocross
1st Place: Bruce Cambern, ’66 Cobra
2nd Place: Bruce Cambern, ’66 Cobra

BF Goodrich Hot Lap Challenge
1st Place: Bruce Cambern, ’66 Cobra
2nd Place: Ryan Matthews, ’69 Camaro

Speed by Spectre Design/Build Challenge
1st Place: Barry Blomquist, ’62 Corvette
2nd Place: Josh Henning, ’67 Chevelle

Wonder why they didn't want him back........... Probably because the beak heavy POS would have been beaten to easily...................

Oh, AL427SBF, you did notice that it swept all the performance comps wich included a RR right? It did lose in the "Design/Build" challenge though. Maybe if he'd put a sb in it with wings and things he'd have done better in the boy racer catagory.

So you are saying Bob Bondaurant and the Shelby Racing Team, both don't know what they are talking about but you do? Is that it? LMAO!

Bob Bondaurant - 351 Windsor was a better balanced Cobra for racing
Shelby Spec Racing Cobra - 427 body with a 351 Windsor

Google 427 cobra road course stats for the last decade you moron.
----

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Google 427 cobra road course stats for the last decade you moron.
----

Easy tiger...

I've said this before & I'll say it again - until all the numb skulls have understood it, or till I discover otherwise.

I think you'll find engines only play a minor role.
Racing has more to do with grip!!!
Tyres & areo package play a bigger role than engine brand, size or shape - PERIOD!

Perhaps you may be quoting others without fully understanding.
Ever thought that perhaps the only reason they downsize to a sb is because they find that the power (read torque) of the bb overwhelms the limited GRIP levels of the tyres & aero package of a cobra?
...and it is this balance they are referring to & not weight?

I suspect sb are often more popular with races for this reason, and bc they are cheaper, with lighter internals which theoretically allow them to spin up quicker & higher rpm.

Ultimately, it's rare your engine will determine 1st, 2nd or last unless it lets go on you.

Save your sb v bb arguements for fools who are ignorant, cos noone with sense is listening.

Each to their own on engine choice.
Over & out!!

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

So you are saying Bob Bondaurant and the Shelby Racing Team, both don't know what they are talking about but you do? Is that it? LMAO! ----

A JBL and small block is a track day car-built for the purpose and not a reason for a superiority attitude. It's a stand-off scale Cobra. 3170's is a real '60's car with a highly developed chassis for track use. 3170's BB will eat your JBL-it's a specialized weapon also. Of course we don't know if you can get the same results as 3170 (the driver) can driving yours do we ace? Lose the ass-clown attitude and discuss without the mistaken belief that you're dispensing absolute fact. You're embarrassing Richard Hudgins-a class guy and fine engineer.

Originally Posted by Dimis

Perhaps you may be quoting others without fully understanding.
Ever thought that perhaps the only reason they downsize to a sb is because they find that the power (read torque) of the bb overwhelms the limited GRIP levels of the tyres & aero package of a cobra?
...and it is this balance they are referring to & not weight?

Dimis has it right. It's the balance of the package they've created for the spec. They could just as easily created a different spec to build the cars to-like 700HP FE's with full slicks and bronze bushings. But the two ideas of a spec car are to limit costs, and take the cars performance out of the variables to find the superior driver. Bondurant knows what he's doing but the cars were not spec'd that way because it's the ultimate track combination. Cost and politics to Ford and CS determined that choice.

You're using a wrong example to prattle a fool's argument that bears no relation to the subject discussed here.

[AL427SBF]

This has nothing to do with Richard Hudgins, very poor taste on your part to even equate this to a JBL discussion. What is does prove is you're a classless act unlike Richard who obviously knows the value of a SB to get a well balanced road course car.

No where have I said top heavy, nose heavy etc. This has always been about a balanced car for road course racing ...

Big Block guys forever trying to make the case that there is no weight/distribution difference between a FE and a Windsor. Absolutely laughable, you can't argue with physics. Spend some time around the road course guys who WIN and see what they are running lol.

See underline, that equals BALANCE. If you don't get it, well not much I can do, you can't fix stupid.
----

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

. If you don't get it, well not much I can do, you can't fix stupid.

Uhhh, Al... don't let the gruff exterior of Chas. fool you. He has decades of experience in the performance automotive parts world along with competition speed events to boot. He knoweth what he speaketh of.... (He really does.)

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Easy tiger...

I've said this before & I'll say it again - until all the numb skulls have understood it, or till I discover otherwise.

I think you'll find engines only play a minor role.
Racing has more to do with grip!!!
Tyres & areo package play a bigger role than engine brand, size or shape - PERIOD!

Perhaps you may be quoting others without fully understanding.
Ever thought that perhaps the only reason they downsize to a sb is because they find that the power (read torque) of the bb overwhelms the limited GRIP levels of the tyres & aero package of a cobra?
...and it is this balance they are referring to & not weight?

I suspect sb are often more popular with races for this reason, and bc they are cheaper, with lighter internals which theoretically allow them to spin up quicker & higher rpm.

Ultimately, it's rare your engine will determine 1st, 2nd or last unless it lets go on you.

Save your sb v bb arguements for fools who are ignorant, cos noone with sense is listening.

Each to their own on engine choice.
Over & out!!

Very well said,then you add in the bling factor.For some me included opening the hood of these cars and seeing a big block has it's profound affect all by itself,No racing required!! Been racing,(mostly street) all my life,the ones we always like to go after were the blowhards.The quiet ones we got to know better.The bb/sb wars will never end,never mattered never will to me.Promise this though open the hoods on any of my hot rods and you will certainly see aluminum topped big chunks of American cast iron,hand built with one purpose in mind.When out patrolling not concerned about what your fender badge says you may have lurking under your hood.All prey is treated equal,the fun is just being there.
PS Street racing is a dying thrill around here.Way too many on the roads today that should have their right to operate a motor vehicle revoked.

[Dons427]

I own an ERA 427 car #690 with FE 428 with aluminum heads, waterpump and intake.
The car has the independant rear with outboard brakes.
The literature on the car and talking to Bob Punam from ERA state;
The car weighs in at; 2,450 lbs, with 1,250 in front and 1,200 in rear.
If this is true; the car is well balanced.

Don

[Dons427]

I agree that a 427 replica should have an FE big block, period.
The small block guys are in denial if they can't accept that an FE with all the aluminum goodies can weigh the same as an all iron small block.
The engine weight for an FE is posted on ERA's website.
They claim it can weighthe same as an all iron small block chevy!
sorry for swearing.

Don

[Ozzir]

From my limited expierience on road courses and a few race schools that Ive done it was always preached that weight was everything. Lighter car meant you could brake later and corner faster. The laws of physics cant be overcome. Same car with same horsepower, same driver but 200 lbs lighter will be faster every time. Ive been on the track and watched Miatas school guys in Vettes. I got schooled in my Viper going through corners by a guy in a Mini.

I just bought a Cobra which has always been my dream car. It was ALMOST everything I wanted. It has a 351 in it. My perfect car would have had a big block. For me i dont care about the 100 or 200 lbs or the few seconds faster on the road course. I want the big block. Heres the best part about these cars. I can always drop in a bb and be totally happy.

[Silversmith]

AC's are a blast! Original's, factory built replica's, or kits! I feel some of the replica's, KMC's, ERA's, Shelby's, alum. & glass are better & stronger than the originals. I have spent time in both. When it comes to racing on todays tracks. I feel kits like the FFR & others offer some of the best platforms to operate from. With either BB or SBF depending on what class you interested in. I prefer BBF's a 427 body & SBF's in a FIA or slabside body. But thats just me. With the suspension used in todays AC's & all the alum.. I think the tunning of either the bbf or sbf in almost any AC platform will balance out fairly even. So it really comes down to traction & driving ability. My old ERA is about as close to a original (except glass) as they come. The frame is stronger & the AC weighs about 300lbs.(total) more than a original. I'm taking my AC down to McMahon's Racing Saturday 3/31/12 to get her balanced out; w/my fat arse in her. I hope to get her to about F/R 48/52 & close to "0" L/R. But we'll see At least I'll know what her true weight is, with me seated. V8/AC's have had a awsome history! Starting in the US & most of the world with Carroll's vision! With AC lover's like us in the world, there is a lot more history to come. Remember M8's! We as AC owners, add up to mabe 25 to 30 thousand souls; worldwide; total! Different views is how we learn & grow. But don't be hatin Hmm; I wonder how many really??

[mdross1]

My big block car was when scaled 48F- 52R with iron heads intake and water pump,now has all aluminum including 9" pumpkin.Engine is in same place small would be.