MSD Cap build-up

[Rick Parker]

Is the timing stable when checked with a timing light? Stable at all speeds and max advance? If not, check the gap as stated.

[RICK LAKE]

Rwillia4 Any chance of a first Name?? Lets start with the O2 sensor, is it varying good or sticking either high or low on the mv numbers? Start with this remove and is if it is full of carbon. Some motor that are driving hard burn a little more oil than others. If sensor is black, try clean with a good carb cleaner. Fill cleaner into small jar with JUST the bottom where the fins are to help break down the carbon let sit over night in solution. Keep covered to not let liquid vapor out. Air blow after 12 hours and retest and check numbers.
I do know that MSD has had alot of problems with boxes, caps and rotors, and coils. IF the coil is not an "e" coil and is mounted on motor, try another coil, Goto Autozone or Pepboys. Just mount it loose to do this check. If nothing changes, take coil back for refund. keep clean. Is your timing plate locked off in the distributor housing? The little screw may have come loose or fallen out and has timing bouncing. Check air gap on pickup. Next is to replace MSD box with know good one. Over the years I have got 1 new box and 2 spares. I pick them up at swap meets and have them sent to MSD for check out and repair. Check your grounds and power feeds to both msd and ECU for good clean connections. If nothing else works, find a dyno shop that KNOWS the fast setup. Replace all spark plugs with O2 sensor cleaning. You didn't say if your system is wide band or normal band. My have to go to "N" programing or Alifa, I forget. This uses just TPS, Coolant sensor, IAT sensor, and O2 sensor. Camshaft is too big in my motor to run other system. This will get you started. Rick L.

[Rwillia4]

Well, I think I found the problem but I have no idea what is causing it. the sound it the FAST system triggering the fuel rail. Fuel pressure issue - YouTube

Rob

[Gaz64]

Sounds like the injectors pulsing to a false rpm signal like MSD ignitions produce with the key on.
Hence the flickering fuel pressure.

[RICK LAKE]

Rwillia4 Rob That is a normal injector pulse to prime the motor to start. All injectors are turn on a 2-4 times every 90 to 180 degrees of distributor, depends on system. The gauge bounce is the fuel going into the motor 8 injector pulse at once and the pump trys to keep the pressure up while the fuel pressure regulator is trying to control this at 45 psi. You have crank signal for injectors but we don't know about good spark. DON'T Keep cranking the motor with fuel pressure on There is enough pressure to start the motor without running the pump. You are washing down the cylinders.
Pull all the plugs, Are they wet or black?? Picture would be nice to see. If wet we need to go back and check out the spark end of the system. either air dry plugs or get a new set. Easy way to test, Pull coil wire at 1 end and have motor crank. Keep anything metal out of area and yourself a min of 1 foot. If you lay plug wire on side you want to see a bright spark during crank. Blue or yellow and jump about 3/4 " of an inch to contact. If not get wire little closer and retry. If spark is weak, cheapest is start with coil. If you have no spark need to check for signal to MSD box, Box could be cooked. I had a new box cook on my first startup. Internal short of a shunt. Car started after repair. After this testing, smell the oil in the motor, if it smells like gas, change the oil and filter. Old FAST system was batch fire on crank and then went to sequential or stayed batch. Have this in my notes from 15 years ago. Can you you tube this test of spark? I know of people that have run 6AL boxes for years and never a problem, also know poeple that have not gotten there cars to start with a new out of the box kit. Unhook fuel pump from spark testing. The motor could already be flooded. Could get nice bang out of side pipes or enternally damage motor if gas vapors go off. Pull plugs and check spark. Rick L.

[Rwillia4]

Well plugs looked like crap, they had carbon and wet fuel on them (last time the fuel pump was turned on was 24 hrs before). There is good spark. I took the wide band O2 sensor out and cleaned it. It was also wet with fuel. I cleaned (sanded) all grounds. Oil smells good.

The car was "cranky" and started hard. I decided to get everything up to temperature (nicely) to see if that would clean it out some. I "throttled" the fuel pump to keep too much fuel from going in, which seemed to help. It has begun to work better but still has a unknown issue. It has chewed through a fresh tank of fuel in 80 miles, so I think it is a fuel problem. Or the timing has gone way off, I'm still trying to get a timing light to check (mine is in storage). ...dang I forgot to check the O2 sensor reading when it was hot.

[Rwillia4]

Here is the spark test. Spark test - YouTube

It looks like is misses the first couple of pickups. I'm guessing this is more fluke than consistant. But if this is the problem would it be in the distributor or the box?
Note the carbon build up on the plug.

[RICK LAKE]

Rwillia4 Rob the O2 and plugs are done. Glass beading the plugs will clean them. Question, what is the gap you are runninng at?? You have a good spark to a bad plug. Try running at .045" to start. If the O2 sensor looks like this,(plugs) it is trying to lean out the A/F readings to get to the 14.7-1 ratio. Don't play with the ECU until we fix the other problems. Unless you see something wrong with timing or loose distributor, don't touch it. Need to fix 1 thing at a time, this is the main reason alot of guys get lost when an FI car is not running right. Rick L. Ps thanks for the short film, makes diag alot easier to fix.

[Rwillia4]

Got it, replace. It will take a few days to get back to it. What makes a plug go bad in 2000 miles? I thought I would get a bit more life out of them. I might be opening a can of worms but what is a good plug? The current ones are NGK, I'm not sure of the heat index.

I didn't post the still shot of the wet plug when it first came out. I will try to post later today.

Rick, thanks for all the advise and help. It is folks like you that make these forums work.

[RICK LAKE]

Rwillia4 Rob from my 30+ years of beening under the hood I have learned this. Each company has there own spark plug builders. GM has AC. Ford has Autolite. AMC used autolite or champion or what ever they could find. What ever year the motor and heads are based on start there. You are not racing all the time and not going from sea level to 5,000 ft every day so your heat range will only go up or down 1-2 levels max. I would go back to what ever the motor started with. Is this a KCR motor? KCR would put the plugs to match this motor to start or maybe 1 range warmer.
A poorly programmed FI system will kill a set of plugs and O2 sensor in 5 minutes. Yes I know this from my own setup. Fast asked for info on my motor and sent me an ECU with firing orders for plugs and injectors for a BBC setup. My motor ran with everything 180 off degrees. Cooked the paint on the car in 45 seconds. I went to Second Street in PA. I forget owners name but took 7 hours, 8 phone calls and a electical diagram to correct THEIR screwup. 2 sets of plugs and 1 O2 sensor for the car, an $500.00 O2 for the dyno also got screwed in the deal. It's amazing how it's never anyone fault.
I have the DVD on the fast programming and read the info on my system. The bottom line for any motor with FI is to have the 1st programming done on a dyno and spend the 2-400.00 dollars. What comes from this is a good base line to start. You put this on a floppy disc (in my case) or down load on a hard drive that can't crash. If lost, reboot and start from there again. Some guys run motors lean and mean. You make the most HP. Here's the rub, I want torque and couldn't care about HP. My motor lives between idle and 6,200 rpms period. FE's cost 1/3-1/2 more to build than Lima or windsor motors. I don't have deep pockets either. I have my motor setup soft on the tune because of where I go in the country to run. IMO running a little soft will never hurt a motor. 15 years with same block and started with a 452 and now run a 482 shelby motor. A 20K motor being or getting cooked is not worth a $12.00 piece of press board and plack with what place you ended up,(award). Back to you,
If this was my problem, the motor is carboned out this is where I would start
First thing is to decarbon motor, GM sells top engine cleaner. Nasty stuff will take the paint right off the car if dripped on. I have a throttle body on my motor so a slow pour works for me. Let sit for 20 minutes and start motor. Let motor warm up at 1,500 rpms and clean out. In your case easiest thing would be to buy a spray bottle and add a mixture of distilled water and washer solvent and spray into a warm motor. The mixture turns to steam and help remove the build up. Lite spray you want and to hear the motor drop only 100-200 rpms MAX. You pour water into motor and you may lock it up and bend rods. This will not effect the oil spark plugs or O2 sensor. After this is done, new spark plugs and O2 sensor. It's hard to find a qualified dyno shop that KNOWS the FAST and SPEED PRO system and how and what to do for setups. My guy wanted to know everything about my motor and this makes good sense to me. Other guys don't ask a thing and car and motor never run right. You can tell by the seat of your pants when car is running good. Buying an A/F meter might not be a bad idea either and mount it either in both banks or other bank O2 sensor is not in. Not sure how goo the A/F meter work with the ones sticking into the end of the tail pipe or side pipe, fresh air issues. If plugs are black it means that you are running rich and the motor never leans out or oil is being sucked into the intake side of the motor and being burnt. Only way to know this oil problem is to watch your level. If you are going through a quart of oil every 1k miles, AGAIN IMO, you have a sealing problem or real heavy abuse issue. Blue smoke on startups is oil, Black smoke is running rich. White smoke, cold moisture in exhaust is OK, Motor hot and running for 15 minutes, coolant problem like blown head gasket. This does keep bugs away from you. New plugs and O2 and recheck programming of ECU. I would run autolites. NGK's are for turbo motors, or for motor across the pond or motorcycles. NGK's remind me of Champions, run great for 1-5 hours, after that so-so. Late note I do cut back the bridge on the plugs and have set them up so the spark is shooting at the intake valve. They call it indexing and takes time and thin washers. Not worth the time for your motor. Good Luck Rick L.

[Rwillia4]

Rick,
All good information.

My motors story is: It is a KCR build with the TWM and fast. They did an initial tune, out of the car, no air filters, and his headers. Once I instaled the motor in the car and added the restrictions (filters, header) it was running rich. I was a virgin at the fast interface and did not really feel comfortable with major tweeks. Around 700 miles it backfired and blew the head gasket (yes, I retorqued the heads before). I happened to be driving across country the next week, so I trailered up the car and stopped by KRC to have the head gasket fixed (I wasn't sure if the gasket was the only problem and didn't want to open the motor without Keith). After the gasket was replace we went for a tuning ride, they tweeked the fast settings for the motor in the car. A pull through the RPM was much smoother and fuel economy went way up. I put another 800 miles on the car with no problems. Then had to store the car for 2 years, it was started every ~4 months and brought up to temp. I just got the car back a month ago and initially it started well and worked other than sucking down gas. This was the first time I took it for a longer drive cruising at highway speeds but I did have it up to temp a few times during local driving making sure everything was still tight and working.
The original rotor, cap, plugs are still being used. I plan to replace the plugs and O2 sensor. No oil is getting consumed

[Jerry Clayton]

Another issue of an engine started and brought up to temp every few months-----this doesn't work for performance electronic fuel injected, O2 sensor controlled engines-----

[MAStuart]

In your checking the spark video, it didn't sound like you pulled out all of the plugs. Pull them all out, keep them in order, if one or several look different, it may lead you to a cylinder that is maybe having a problem. You can use a propane torch, heating up your plugs and your oxygen sensor slowly until all the carbon disappears. You said the car has been sitting for 2 years, fuel goes bad real quick these days. It could be as simple as a fuel injector getting clogged up. When this happens, a few cylinders running lean makes the oxygen sensor tell the computer we are running lean, add more fuel. Remember, an oxygen sensor reads how much oxygen is in the air, not how much fuel. It will keep adding fuel until its maximum amount, because the cylinder with the problems will still be running lean and keep pumping oxygen into the system. When you first start it, if it is like most computer things it is an open loop mode. Meaning it ignores the oxygen sensor, as it warms up it goes into a closed loop mode. It tries keeping it to what the air-fuel ratio is set at. Under wide open throttle, it should be open loop again. That would explain why it would start up and as you ran it down the road it started giving you problems and when you gassed it, it seemed to give you problems. Try to get it started without the oxygen sensor hooked up. Just a thought. Mark

[Rwillia4]

Here are the plugs. I pulled #1 earlier in the week and it looks much better.When I pulled the plug I also pulled the O2 sensor and cleaned it. And yes the shiny threads was fuel.



now the plug looks better. So I'm thinking it is a bad O2 sensor. I am replacing the plugs today. O2 sensor on order.
1-4
5-8

I think the plugs look OK if someone can read them better please post your thoughts. The top left is #1, bottom right is #8. O2 sensor read after the collector by #3 and #4 tubes.

I wish I had blown some compressed air around the plugs before I pulled them. There was a lot of FOD build-up around the hole.

[Rick Parker]

It is too rich. AND are these plugs colder than what are recommended? Sure looks like it. With unleaded fuel the insulators should be much lighter in color.

[Rwillia4]

These are the plugs that came with the motor from KRC. I think the rich look is from a faulty O2 sensor that was dumping fuel in for the last ~75 miles. New plugs are going in 5 minutes.

[RICK LAKE]

Rwillia4 Rob pictures helped #6 & #7 plugs look on the money for firing. There are other factor with this issue also. What we need is a spark plug checker. It looks like a flashlight with a magnifing glass to look inside between the isolator the other case. This will tell you heat range being too hot or cold. Gap? I think I read that MSD said to add .010-.015" extra clearance because of the longer more powerful spark. The 2 good plugs I see, look like the opening is facing the intake valve. Every time this is open the air/fuel combo hits the sparkplug and helps keep it cleaner. Degreeing the spark plugs will help keep them cleaner. Like said before, without a choke to help the motor start and run when cold it needs to run rich. Have all 8 stacks been balance with an air flow meter. This meter sits on top of the TWM stacks and measure air flow. Cost is about $45.00 and would get 2 to make it easier to setup. I would go up 1 heat range and I think your motor will be in the ball park. Drive normal and lets see how the plugs look after a couple of drives of 10-15 miles. If you can, Turn on fuel pump and build up pressure. turn off and start motor. there is enough fuel to get it running, then turn fuel pump back on and run like normal. It's better to run a little rich than lean out. If you are really serious about fine tuning the car an A/F meter will be needed and another bung hole put in the other header or side pipe. This way now you have readings on both sides of the motor. This will make it easier to find the sweet spot of the motor and the mid range power will pickup also. Rick L. Ps remember do ONLY 1 thing at a time and test. Plugs and O2 are good step first.

[Rwillia4]

Well the good news it the car ran well with the new plugs. The bad news is the Clutch slave cylinder blew out.