Craftsman now mostly made in China. Bummer.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The more sensitive subject is whether American labor should be entitled to a higher standard of "global living" simply because they live in this country. If foreign workers are prepared to provide suitable services, because their accustomed standard of living is lower, shouldn't our competing workforce lower its standard of living expectations in order to compete? People don't want to talk about that because the issue has the potential to explode... like stepping on a Twinkie....

The problem is your not thinking long term. Why do corporations move manufacturing off shore and then bring the end product back to the USA to sell it? Why not keep manufacturing in the USA and add the new plant off shore and sell the products there? The answer is they do not pay a high enough wage for those people to afford their product. They want to bring it back here to sell it to what was the greatest market in the world. The long term end result of bringing USA labor rates down to 3rd world rates is the destruction of our market.

When 80% of our people no longer make enough money to afford anything, they cannot buy anything. It's already happening. People continued to buy using home equity loans and credit cards. Then when the normal economic cycle took a dip, the Fed had to bail out the banks that were collapsing right and left.

What percent of our population are on some form of government assistance? When you can live at a higher standard of living on welfare than you can working, why work?

About half our population pays no income tax. Now part of the government wants to increase taxes rather than cut spending (much of which is assistance to those who do not work).

Now when labor rates are below $10/hr and 80% of the population is there, how many attorneys will the market support charging $200/hr? Will there be any high paying jobs left?

Yes the long term end result of moving manufacturing off shore and lowering wages is a financial collapse of the government, and without the manufacturing capability, a country without the means to defend itself.

[REAL 1]

Geez, what's so bad about China?

Jeff Imelt, head of GE and the head of Obama's economic development panel shipped jobs there so it must be a good thing. They're our friend and Ally according to our "leader".

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Rare Iron

Sensitive? Yeah, we should lower our standard of living here in the US so we can be on par with China & third-world countries. That's the solution right?

Originally Posted by olddog

The problem is your not thinking long term....

See? I told you it was sensitive. Look, I don't want to seem unfeeling, but the fiscal realities are that American labor must be prepared to compete globally if it expects to keep jobs. If domestic labor costs exceed foreign labor costs by more than a "token amount," management will move the production overseas -- I'm just telling you like it is. You know, a lot of us on this board had parents that were raised during the Depression, and we, ourselves, grew up in the shadow of our parents' life experiences. I believe they would tell American labor that if the jobs no longer can support your desired standard of living, and you want to keep those jobs, then you must be prepared to lower your standard of living. Like I said, it's a very sensitive subject....

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by lippy

My web search indicated this particular Matco tool is made in Taiwan. SK and Mac also.

I am going to double check. It has been about 4 years since I was in there, but another of our reps visits there all the time. They are about 45 minutes from my house. I do know they have 2 plants that manufacture tools in Stow, Ohio. I've seen how the sockets and some ratchets were made.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by patrickt

See? I told you it was sensitive. Look, I don't want to seem unfeeling, but the fiscal realities are that American labor must be prepared to compete globally if it expects to keep jobs. If domestic labor costs exceed foreign labor costs by more than a "token amount," management will move the production overseas -- I'm just telling you like it is. You know, a lot of us on this board had parents that were raised during the Depression, and we, ourselves, grew up in the shadow of our parents' life experiences. I believe they would tell American labor that if the jobs no longer can support your desired standard of living, and you want to keep those jobs, then you must be prepared to lower your standard of living. Like I said, it's a very sensitive subject....

Just so you are aware..it is generally NOT the labor cost that is the deciding factor on where to produce the items. Since the value of the dollar has dropped and the Chinese are demanding higher pay, that is becoming much smaller of an issue. The big difference is in material costs. The Chinese government holds the costs of the material artificially low via government subsidies. For example, a few years ago, you could buy a complete mold roughly 6'x3'x12" in dimensions from China for about $1000. The material alone in the USA was more than that. It was cheaper to buy the screwed up mold from China, ship it here, and have it repaired than to buy material here.

Extensive use of automation and sophisticated CNC machines has made any difference in labor negligible. We are now competing with shipping costs, material costs, and delivery times. We can beat all of those in the USA except your most basic of items...like hand tools.

[patrickt]

The point is, the American worker must be prepared to say "I will work for less, and lower my standard of living in order to do so, to keep my job in this country." Do you disagree?

[mpanten]

Originally Posted by lippy

So here's the skinny - if you want US made ratcheting wrenches you have two choices, SnapOn and Armstrong. As far as I can tell, for that product, SK, Matco, MAC, and all of the others are made in Taiwan or China.

Add JH williams to the list. Same company as snap on. Some people say the exact same as snap on others say thats not true but I have some and they are fantastic and made in USA. Cornwell are very good but pretty expensive like snap on and matco. If I were buying tools again they would be JH williams. I thought SK was mostly USA but that could have changed.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by mpanten

Add JH williams to the list.

That's right. They used to call their stuff the "Super-Wrench," or something like that. Man, they've been around since the Mayflower....


Ooooooh. See: http://www.amazon.com/Williams-WSC-1.../dp/B001355MX6

[lippy]

Originally Posted by mpanten

Add JH williams to the list. Same company as snap on. Some people say the exact same as snap on others say thats not true but I have some and they are fantastic and made in USA. Cornwell are very good but pretty expensive like snap on and matco. If I were buying tools again they would be JH williams. I thought SK was mostly USA but that could have changed.

Williams's ratcheting wrenches are made in Taiwan. Several of their tools are US but not those. They still are good quality and decent price. You can get an SAE set for about $80 on Amazon. Not as good as SnapOn but better than Craftsman.

[REAL 1]

A huge part of the the problem is Unions. They were created to protect the worker and are now jeopardizing workers buy unrelenting and unrealistic demands in many cases. Ergo jobs go overseas. They don't get it.

I whole heartedly agree with right to work laws.

[olddog]

I don't like unions and don't want to work in one, but I'm not anti union. Although they are part of the problem they are not a huge part. Plenty of non-union plants have been shipped over seas.

The biggest cost factor in the USA is government regulation compliance. Then comes the fines for not being in compliance. Topped off with litigation uncertainty (the more successful the bigger the target on your back. All this in a country that has the highest tax rates, but if you pay off the politicians you get special deductions and can pay nothing. Publicly these same politicians will ridicule you, as greedy SOBs that don't want to pay their fair share.

[olddog]

I remember when gasoline was $0.20 - $0.25 a gallon and minimum wage was $1.50 an hour. Good manufacturing jobs paid 2 - 3 times minimum wage.

I'll use 25 cents and do the math. Gasoline has been running $3 - $4 a gallon, which is 12 to 16 times as much as it was. So minimum wage should be $18 - $24 an hour and good manufacturing jobs would be $36 - $72 an hour. Looks like wages have not kept up.

To be fair taxes on gasoline are higher today than back then, so not all the change is energy cost, but it could be argued that cost after tax is what everyone pays.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by olddog

I remember when gasoline was $0.20 - $0.25 a gallon and minimum wage was $1.50 an hour....

But over the past 100 years, food prices have fallen by 82%. Why shouldn't we use that basis instead of gasoline?

[olddog]

Originally Posted by patrickt

But over the past 100 years, food prices have fallen by 82%. Why shouldn't we use that basis instead of gasoline?

Because the cost of energy impacts every part of the economy and therefore has the biggest impact on the economy. The price of eggs impacts very little in the economy.

Now at this point, we are going on my memory, which isn't very accurate. Candy bars were a nickle now a buck. Cars were $2500 and now $25000. However candy bars are different sizes and car options radically different. Difficult to compare. Energy is pretty much energy and easier to compare. I know octane, lead, etc. but it provides the same purpose.

PS
Perhaps the price of a barrel of oil would be a better number, but I didn't have them in my head, and gasoline is tied to the price of oil.

PPS
Everyone relates to the price of gasoline, not oil. Most peoples eyes roll back in their head if you start talking about $/btu costs.

[patrickt]

Not just eggs. Food prices in general have fallen by over 80%. See: Over 100 Years, Food Prices Have FALLEN By 82% But what's more even the poorest of the poor now have much more than they ever did. See: How Are We Doing?; The American Magazine Note in that article, which is from the election before last, that a gallon of gasoline still goes for less than 11 minutes of work.

[olddog]

In fairness I edited my previous post (PS & PPS) after patrickt posted.

Food production, like manufacturing widgets, prices have came down because of improvements that reduce costs. We have better fertilizers, insecticides, no till planting, better machinery, etc. A farmer can plow in an hour what would have taken weeks with a horse. Of course the prices have come down! Your comparing grapes to watermelons.

Energy has not changed. A btu is a btu and always will be. Yes the cost to recover energy changes, and supply verses demand impacts price. I expect we can produce a barrel of oil cheaper today than we could in 1900, too. However I cannot think of any one thing that is more closely tied to the economy and more stable in terms of value than energy.

Now if you think the governments inflation index is a better number, fine use it. Find the year minimum wage was $1.50 and run the numbers. I expect you will get similar numbers, but it would be very interesting to know.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by patrickt

The point is, the American worker must be prepared to say "I will work for less, and lower my standard of living in order to do so, to keep my job in this country." Do you disagree?

Depends on the job. If you want to flip burgers, that is an accurate statement. We are talking about, machining and other manufacturing jobs, you do not have to say this at all. What you need to do is keep up with the times, keep educating yourself, and invest in newer equipment and tooling. If you fail to do this, then you are no better than the Chinese worker and they WILL beat you every time on other costs.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

A huge part of the the problem is Unions. They were created to protect the worker and are now jeopardizing workers buy unrelenting and unrealistic demands in many cases. Ergo jobs go overseas. They don't get it.

I whole heartedly agree with right to work laws.

Yep, what put Twinkies out of business???? The union thought the company was bluffing, but they weren't. Did the union members really think they were properly represented?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Yep, what put Twinkies out of business???? The union thought the company was bluffing, but they weren't. Did the union members really think they were properly represented?

What put Twinkies out of business was the fact that no one was eating them anymore.

[patrickt]

RodKnock agrees with every post I've made on this thread. And, if there's one thing I respect RodKnock for, it's his business sense and his knack for numbers. That said, I fully expect RodKnock to post something to the effect of "Once again Patrick speaketh the truth and I salute him for it."