When is a genuine Shelby no longer a Shelby

[Thor maine]

I asked this question in another thread, CSX 3016 Syosset for sale. My question is when is a real genuine Shelby Cobra from the 60's , no longer and becomes something else? Ok so you have a real genuine CSX from the 60's and it has a long race history. So as a racer it no longer has the original engine as is the nature of racing you change and destroy engines. And say because it has so much race history that it has little or no original body and add in a few big crashes and you replaces the main frame rail and because you were there you replaced the other with a higher quality main tubing and most of the suspension with higher quality components. As Carroll Shelby said "AC used a lot of pot metal". Very little of the genuine car is left, is it still a real genuine CSX from the 60's. If not what is it and if it is does all the race history add to its value???

[Rick Parker]

Perception is reality. The title says YES. so.... you have a repaired Shelby. The rest is mind games.

[CobraM@]

this type of discussion has been ongoing on many of the "Restorer" styled forums for years, and the general concensus seems to be that replacement or repair as required in keeping the vehicle as originally intended, does not constitute a rebirth, it becomes something new when it is presented as something different to originally portrayed.


The average person would have to "expect" (and ultimately accept) a certain amount of repair or replacement in the 50 or more years of the cars history, add to this a racing pedigree and the expectation would have to be that much less than a regular (road based car) is remaining???

M@

[soulman]

Hi,

Been reading this and the other thread for a while, with a smirk on my face...
Why,

I know all the others are a fake, because I own a 68 registered AC Cobra in Australia and guess what ?

My Chassis number is CSX 3016 and have owned it for 24 years now!

But it does have a glass body!

And no I am not claiming its the real one.

Soul.

[Wbulk]

I agree with Rick. As long as you are fixing and replacing with like parts it's still an original. But as soon you make obvious improvements you risk it becoming a replica.

[Tommy]

There was a comment over on a Corvette forum that went something like this: "Only 50 of the original 20 1967 L88 Corvettes still exist." This sarcastic comment reflects the common belief that many of the technically perfect and certified cars currently in circulation are reproductions of the factory originals. For the con-men who made the reproductions they are not genuine L88s. For the buyers who now own cars that can't be proven to be reproductions, they are now genuine. So the understanding of what genuine means comes down to what you know about the car. ... As long as both parties in the conversation know the real history of the car, repairs and all, you don't even need to use the word genuine. The car simply is what it is. .... Using the word 'genuine" in an ad or a conversation with an uninformed person is simply a way of implying it is not a known reproduction. So, in my opinion, a heavily repaired car with its original VIN plate can be called genuine. But the seller needs to share information about the repairs with the buyer.

[lovehamr]

The difference between the vette stuff and Cobra stuff is the level to which they were documented as they were built. As it is, the vette guys don't have anything close to what the SAAC registry does to document genuine cars.

[SunDude]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

I asked this question in another thread, CSX 3016 Syosset for sale. My question is when is a real genuine Shelby Cobra from the 60's , no longer and becomes something else? Ok so you have a real genuine CSX from the 60's and it has a long race history. So as a racer it no longer has the original engine as is the nature of racing you change and destroy engines. And say because it has so much race history that it has little or no original body and add in a few big crashes and you replaces the main frame rail and because you were there you replaced the other with a higher quality main tubing and most of the suspension with higher quality components. As Carroll Shelby said "AC used a lot of pot metal". Very little of the genuine car is left, is it still a real genuine CSX from the 60's. If not what is it and if it is does all the race history add to its value???

An original Shelby Cobra doesn't cease to be an original Shelby Cobra simply because parts of it have been replaced, repaired or restored over the years, as long as there's an unbroken, documented chain of ownership to the car's title. However, it would no longer be considered "original, unrestored" and would be classified otherwise depending on exactly what happened to it over the years.

What people seem to be questioning about CSX3016 is whether that particular car has any real claim to that particular chassis number/title. I do not pretend to know, one way or the other.

[REAL 1]

I think the SAAC Registry addresses this.

[Ron61]

The SAAC Registry of 08 addresses this but it really doesn't clear anything up. When it was registered in California, per the 08 registry it was registered as CSX 3106 instead of CSX 3016 and then later on changed back to 3016. It also seems to question if the shock tower so many are talking about is really the original or one from some other car. To many unknowns to really know if this is a Cobra that can legally be called an original. I know that in Calif. they have to retain a certain amount of the original car and some of that has to have the original VIN numbers on it. I will do some digging around our DMV and see if I can find something that makes it more clear what this state considers original. If not, I know a person in Sacramento that I can call and ask.

Ron

Ron

[CHANMADD]

So....If its made after Carroll's passing , is it also no longer a Real Shelby........?

[1985 CCX]

An old friend of mine states:

"The only original is CSX2000 the rest are replicas......"

An original 60's car is always original. I prefer the barn find however many want perfection which these cars were not. Old race cars were re-skinned, re-engined and re-everything. Probably depends upon the car to be honest. A fully restored car can still be a concours perfect car but could be considered overdone compared to 60's standards. Regardless = Original

Now when is a genuine Shelby no longer that, when it never went through Shelby facility is when. Is a car built in SA and shipped to independent dealer in the US for engine and start up a Genuine Shelby?.....................
I would say a 4000 car started at the SAI facility in Vegas = Genuine
My opinion a car that never saw a SAI facility = Hmmmm
Bigger question. Let the games begin..........

[jhv48]

It appears that the only individuals that question the legitimacy of a 1960's era cobra are those that either don't own one or own replicas.

To me, if it was built in the 60's, it is, and always will be, an original, genuine Shelby cobra. Everything else is a replica, no matter where it was built or who built it.

[Rick Parker]

Repeat after me..........."I'......I ....."Own".....Own......"an".....an....."original" .....original.....fake.........."fake"............ ...See, that wasn't so hard was it?

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Ron61

The SAAC Registry of 08 addresses this but it really doesn't clear anything up. When it was registered in California, per the 08 registry it was registered as CSX 3106 instead of CSX 3016 and then later on changed back to 3016. It also seems to question if the shock tower so many are talking about is really the original or one from some other car. To many unknowns to really know if this is a Cobra that can legally be called an original. I know that in Calif. they have to retain a certain amount of the original car and some of that has to have the original VIN numbers on it. I will do some digging around our DMV and see if I can find something that makes it more clear what this state considers original. If not, I know a person in Sacramento that I can call and ask.

Ron

Ron

I agree the registry entry is hard to follow. I can't tell whether there are 2, 3 or more potential cars that might be 3016.

However, when you say that the title may have been changed from 3106 BACK to 3016, that seems to contradict the registry.

It talks about Bacon possibly buying the title to 3106 (while Mack bought the wreck of 3106 as a bill of sale). Then Bacon sells his wrecked car with the 3106 title to Park who notices the shock tower reads 3016 and has the title "corrected" to read 3016. The car is restored by Mike McCluskey and it seems that the car started off as a street car with CSX32xx or CSX33xx features. So the car in question is most likely neither 3106 nor 3016. Perhaps nobody knows what the real serial number is.

It would seem that the car in question was an original Shelby, but without having the title for whatever its real serial number might be, does it cease to be an original cobra?

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I agree the registry entry is hard to follow. I can't tell whether there are 2, 3 or more potential cars that might be 3016.

However, when you say that the title may have been changed from 3106 BACK to 3016, that seems to contradict the registry.

It talks about Bacon possibly buying the title to 3106 (while Mack bought the wreck of 3106 as a bill of sale). Then Bacon sells his wrecked car with the 3106 title to Park who notices the shock tower reads 3016 and has the title "corrected" to read 3016. The car is restored by Mike McCluskey and it seems that the car started off as a street car with CSX32xx or CSX33xx features. So the car in question is most likely neither 3106 nor 3016. Perhaps nobody knows what the real serial number is.

It would seem that the car in question was an original Shelby, but without having the title for whatever its real serial number might be, does it cease to be an original cobra?

This reminds me. Wasn't there a formerly original cobra that had its serial number completely obliterated and assigned a Kirkham serial number so it could be registered and titled?

[mdross1]

You hear the same argument with Harley Davidson motorcycles,gets almost ridiculas what people will argue over.It is all perception.

[Thor maine]

So if a guy gets a shock tower and a title then has a whole car made but welds in the shock tower and a few other items that he got in a salvage( probably could have only happened in the late 60's or 70's) would that be a genuine Shelby Cobra??

[jhv48]

That's what a lot of cobra owners do already.

They have a glove box with Carroll Shelby's signature on it and then claim their car is an original.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by jhv48

That's what a lot of cobra owners do already.

They have a glove box with Carroll Shelby's signature on it and then claim their car is an original.

Yep, ERA-732 is an original Cobra.