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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra View Post
Yes, I realize I'm quoting myself, ... but maybe I can help us get back to the subject at hand, or at least my take on it.

Let's forget about the adjectives like "real", "genuine", "original", "component", , "continuation", "completion", "replica", etc.

Shelby American sells a car today that they are legally entitled to call a "Shelby Cobra". It is similar to the cars they sold in the 1960s, but it is a brand new car. They have raised the price on the aluminum version of that car and continue to do so.

My thought is perhaps they might some day price themselves out of the market. And maybe that some day is now?

When comparing a brand new aluminum "Shelby Cobra" to a brand new aluminum competitor's car, like a Kirkham. There are certainly things to consider, since both are different in a number of ways:

- Components: more original style suspension versus light weight billet suspension, gauges, head light trim rings, side pipes, etc.
- Paint: painted versus non-painted
- Option Cost: cost of stripes, cost of polished finish, etc.
- Brand Name: "Shelby" brand name and serial number versus not a Shelby
- Customer Service

Although the Kirkham is in the SAAC registry, at some point I got the impression it is more there to keep track a car that can easily be confused with a modern day (or even an original) Shelby Cobra, then for it to be there to acknowledge it as a legitimate Cobra. So even though Kirkhams are in the registry, that does not really do much for me.

Now I don't have a bunch of money burning a hole in my pocket to buy either a current generation Shelby Cobra or a Kirkham, but if I did have the money, I suppose there would be a certain premium price that I would consider paying extra for a completed running Shelby Cobra over a similarly equipped completed running Kirkham (painted with original style suspension). But if we are talking $200k versus $100k for completed running cars, I think the 100% premium markup for the Shelby is not worth it to me personally.

Now Evan got into the game with his car years ago when the markup was not as big. Evan what would you do today? Would you still buy the Shelby Cobra today over an identical Kirkham just for the Shelby brand name and CSX serial number considering today's price difference?

At some price point, Shelby could price themselves out of the market. Just consider the extreme case, they could raise the price of a brand new Shelby Cobra to more than the going price of a 1960's Shelby Cobra. At that point, you might as well just buy an original. It would be just as expensive to insure and worry about crashing.

And after all didn't Shelby price themselves out of the market before with the "completion" series at $500k? The answer to that was to start the "continuation" series. I suppose if they price themselves out of the market again, they just have to come up with a new series name at a lower price point. Hmm, I wonder what they would call it, maybe "perpetuation" series?


That $500,000. number that you mention was that for the supposed tubs that were out back? Tubs csx 3056-3099?

New series name ''Legendary or The Legend"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock View Post
I'm staying away from the "other" discussion, since that is a red herring.

As for Shelby pricing, as you know, the roller pricing of any manufacturer will likely affect the pricing of all the other manufacturers. The Kirkham's were planning an increase too and, IIRC, Superformance has recently increased their roller price as well. The laws of economics control the free markets. I personally think Shelby has reached the point where their market is maybe a few small select "drunken sailors." No really, I think the market is very thin at that level, if there even is one. Plus, you have to wait more than a year to get it?

And there are several alloy CSX4000's running around on the market for way less than $200K like these two examples ASKING about $170,000-$175,000:

Shelby Cobra For Sale - duPont REGISTRY

I'm a subscriber to Keith Martin's Sports Car Market magazine, which reports auction prices from around the world for all sorts of marques. And I can't remember too many alloy CSX's trading above $150K. I just got my new issue, so maybe they'll have one or two in it this issue and I'll get back to this thread with that info.
Hey I was curious what the numbers on the secondary market run, you find any?

Last edited by OnyxRider; 08-16-2013 at 01:29 PM..
  #82 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by OnyxRider View Post
Hey I was curious what the numbers on the secondary market run, you find any?
Sports Car Market Magazine - Car Reviews, Buyers Guides, Automotive Auctions and more!

They will occasionally discuss the market and as well actual auction sales of the continuation models.

As I said, I haven't read their current issue, and I normally throw them out after reading. So, no new data, but for this recent eBay auction of what would appear to be an exacting top-notch alloy CSX4000 (CSX4371) comp build: eBayMotors Item Purchase History

Top offer was $130,000.00. Asking $189,000.00
  #83 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 02:28 PM
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CSX4308 just listed for sale at $175,000, but was finished by Kirkham:

Here's An Interesting CSX4000 (or is it)?
  #84 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 04:06 PM
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Why is it that every time some one mentions a Shelby CSX car it degenerates into this same topic? I started reading about a price increase and once again it's back to the same old and tired run on with the same people saying the same things and adding nothing new.

About the price increase: The price of a finished roller was at one time tracking very well to the price of a Ford GT. But today a low miles Heritage sold for 377500, so now the GT has been redefined once again. People are now paying 30K more for a red car than I paid for my heritage in the fall of 2011. If you're going to buy another GT, buy it now or wait for the GT market to crash. I suspect if you do the latter you'll wait for a long time and you won't see the prices from two years ago.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
Why is it that every time some one mentions a Shelby CSX car it degenerates into this same topic? I started reading about a price increase and once again it's back to the same old and tired run on with the same people saying the same things and adding nothing new.

About the price increase: The price of a finished roller was at one time tracking very well to the price of a Ford GT. But today a low miles Heritage sold for 377500, so now the GT has been redefined once again. People are now paying 30K more for a red car than I paid for my heritage in the fall of 2011. If you're going to buy another GT, buy it now or wait for the GT market to crash. I suspect if you do the latter you'll wait for a long time and you won't see the prices from two years ago.
Kinda like the housing market...
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
Why is it that every time some one mentions a Shelby CSX car it degenerates into this same topic? I started reading about a price increase and once again it's back to the same old and tired run on with the same people saying the same things and adding nothing new.

About the price increase: The price of a finished roller was at one time tracking very well to the price of a Ford GT. But today a low miles Heritage sold for 377500, so now the GT has been redefined once again. People are now paying 30K more for a red car than I paid for my heritage in the fall of 2011. If you're going to buy another GT, buy it now or wait for the GT market to crash. I suspect if you do the latter you'll wait for a long time and you won't see the prices from two years ago.
There's always information, discussion, arguments, etc. that is repeated on every forum.

As an example, I know you own a FGT, which has been posted by you more than once.

Last edited by RodKnock; 08-16-2013 at 04:43 PM..
  #87 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock View Post
We don't know if the alleged price increase will affect anything whatsoever. Markets values could drop, increase as you say, or just remain the same.
True. We don't know for sure but logic would seem to indicate that if the cost of a new Shelby alloy rolling stock chasis is $160K the value of existing well finished aluminum Shelbys would be in excess of that number especially when the time tables for delivery of new rolling stock is a year to 18 months out.

As long as there is sufficient demand Shelby will build cars. Admittedly demand is limited to a very narrow niche market but if they are selling new aluminum rolling stock and there are buyers at $160k, there you have it. Values have gone up on alloy continuation Cobras as completed Continuation Cobras are clearly $210K+.

Don't know much about CSX4371 (will look in the Registry) however, it clearly didn't sell at $130K nor at $189k. Now when the cost of just rolling stock hits $160k seems like that $189k price is more attractive when you will need another $20k on top of the $189k to finish new rolling stock priced at $160k. My view of it. When the cost of new rolling stock was $140k that $189k seems a stretch.

Bretewing: Any time you want give away and get rid of all that signed Shelby "crap" just PM me and I'll pay the shipping to my home. Glad to help.
While you may not see the value in a CSX rolling stock at $160k I'm willing to be there are those that will. When every agrees with you the prices will drop. When there are people that see the value and buy the price will remain and increase until that plateau is reached at any point in time which is always subject to change as markets do either up or down.
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Last edited by REAL 1; 08-16-2013 at 08:30 PM..
  #88 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 08:42 PM
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Standard supply / demand scenario.

Shelby will keep on asking that price as long as someone will pay it. If there is a waiting list for them and they have buyers, they will keep making them and selling them for that price and above if they can.

Fairly simple actually.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by REAL 1 View Post
True. We don't know for sure but logic would seem to indicate that if the cost of a new Shelby alloy rolling stock chasis is $160K the value of existing well finished aluminum Shelbys would be in excess of that number especially when the time tables for delivery of new rolling stock is a year to 18 months out.

As long as there is sufficient demand Shelby will build cars. Admittedly demand is limited to a very narrow niche market but if they are selling new aluminum rolling stock and there are buyers at $160k, there you have it. Values have gone up on alloy continuation Cobras as completed Continuation Cobras are clearly $210K+.

Don't know much about CSX4371 (will look in the Registry) however, it clearly didn't sell at $130K nor at $189k. Now when the cost of just rolling stock hits $160k seems like that $189k price is more attractive when you will need another $20k on top of the $189k to finish new rolling stock priced at $160k. My view of it. When the cost of new rolling stock was $140k that $189k seems a stretch.

Bretewing: Any time you want give away and get rid of all that signed Shelby "crap" just PM me and I'll pay the shipping to my home. Glad to help.
While you may not see the value in a CSX rolling stock at $160k I'm willing to be there are those that will. When every agrees with you the prices will drop. When there are people that see the value and buy the price will remain and increase until that plateau is reached at any point in time which is always subject to change as markets do either up or down.
Any time a replica gets over 180k it is time to look at a Ford GT, why in the world would anyone pay that much for a car that does not do anything very well other than trying to kill you? My GT will analiate any Cobra on a road course including mine with the ac on and the windows up. Those folks interested in attention would also like that factor as well compared with a Cobra.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by REAL 1 View Post
As long as there is sufficient demand Shelby will build cars.
And therein lies the assumption for your "logic."

Another logical alternative is that the alloy CSX becomes too expensive to justify its purchase, demand dries up, and then buyers seek other cheaper (and better, IMHO) aluminum body alternatives (i.e., Kirkham).
  #91 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2013, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
Robo signing is now taking place, duly authorized by the estate of C.S.
Bill, have you considered starting a registry for CS signatures? That way we can keep track of "original" versus "continuation" signatures.
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Cobra #3170 View Post
My GT will analiate any Cobra on a road course including mine with the ac on and the windows up. Those folks interested in attention would also like that factor as well compared with a Cobra.

Dam I've never been anal-iated by anyone, maybe because I'm in the lead and everyone far behind. lol Sorry I write all the time and make many mistakes and usually never proof read all my mistakes. lol annihilate. i think the good ole southern boys spell it analiate. lol
  #93 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra #3170 View Post
Any time a replica gets over 180k it is time to look at a Ford GT, why in the world would anyone pay that much for a car that does not do anything very well other than trying to kill you? My GT will analiate any Cobra on a road course including mine with the ac on and the windows up. Those folks interested in attention would also like that factor as well compared with a Cobra.
Because the original series Cobras are selling for way more starting at at least $500K. When you can still buy a continuation Cobra for several hundred thousand less thats why they sell and guys invest $100k++ in the Shelbys. Plus while the FGT is a superior car performance wise as you would expect it to be for many reasons the Cobra is a special breed and has a special appeal that has transcended generations. Would I love an original, you bet but am I happy with my Continuation Series Cobra?. You bet especially since they are clearly holding value if not increasing. Its rare you can actually buy something you love, drive, use it and see it maintain the initial investment if not return more and provide an opprotunity to do more so in the future.

Rodknock: Of course. Its axiomatic that demand is a key component in setting market value. Thats a given.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by fordracing65 View Post
Anybody want POPCORN, I'm buying...
Yes Please I will have a large bag with a case of beer and a large bottle of brandy , to relieve my boredom while looking through the comments on nothing more than replica Cobra prices going up.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:21 AM
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...and there are always those in the "peanut" gallery throwing their little stones. Many times fueled by petty envy.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:58 AM
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You carry on, lump it or like it Cobras were built by AC ,So if you want to pay over inflated prices for a " Continuation" Kirkham with a CSX chassis No you carry on while I throw my little stones while eating peanuts !

I don't own one so don't have to worry about what a Kirkham Continuation Shelby Replica is worth .



But if it makes you feel better knowing that you own one of these cars and it will be worth a million dollars one day , good luck !

Beleive me my reply is NOT fuelled by Petty Envy !
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Last edited by hurricaneharold; 08-17-2013 at 12:43 PM..
  #97 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2013, 01:54 PM
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...and there are always those in the "peanut" gallery throwing their little stones. Many times fueled by petty envy.
Evan, you're absolutely priceless. It wouldn't be the same around here without you.
  #98 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2013, 02:59 PM
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Because the original series Cobras are selling for way more starting at at least $500K. When you can still buy a continuation Cobra for several hundred thousand less thats why they sell and guys invest $100k++ in the Shelbys. Plus while the FGT is a superior car performance wise as you would expect it to be for many reasons the Cobra is a special breed and has a special appeal that has transcended generations. Would I love an original, you bet but am I happy with my Continuation Series Cobra?. You bet especially since they are clearly holding value if not increasing. Its rare you can actually buy something you love, drive, use it and see it maintain the initial investment if not return more and provide an opprotunity to do more so in the future.

Rodknock: Of course. Its axiomatic that demand is a key component in setting market value. Thats a given.
You are dreaming if you think a continuation Cobra will out pace a Ford GT in appreciation over the years. If you want the Cobra experience then it would be very smart to buy a Kirkham, they look great, are mechanically sound, and do not cost 200k. Buying a continuation is a real gamble because they can always make more if the demand is still there as others have noted. There will be no more original/real Cobra's and there will be no more Ford GT's.
People interested in Cobra's are generally older and like them because they remember the legend. These folks will eventually be gone so why would the prices continue to go up? Remember what happened to the classic cars when the people that loved them began to die off? I know that sounds harsh but I am getting very close to that category myself.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobra #3170 View Post
You are dreaming if you think a continuation Cobra will out pace a Ford GT in appreciation over the years.
Mecum had two Ford GTs. A Heritage car sold for 377.5K and a Tungsten for 245K. Someone really wanted the Heritage, I mean *REALLY* wanted it and price was no object, i.e, that price is irrational exhuberance. The Tungsten car was in line with low miles car sales of late.

A Kirkham was a no sale at $110K, another no sale at $75K

But, CSX2487 did go for 925K. That's the highest I've seen for a 289 car in a very long time.
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Last edited by twobjshelbys; 08-17-2013 at 05:01 PM..
  #100 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2013, 05:54 PM
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Looks like someone is little sensative

CSX3170: show me where I said that Continuation Cobras will out pace FGTs in appreciation. The prices have risen consistently though. I agree that as long as they continue to make them their collectibility is hamstrung. If SAI folds one day that will also affect value likely substantially. My bet is the values will rise substantially. That HMO.
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