Chevy in a Cobra

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

So I am looking at ""Cobras & Replicas 1962-1993" a Brooklands Books publication. In it is a two page picture of a car called the "Mongoose". A car built by Jerry Scheberies which is a 1958 AC ACE with a F85 Olds V8 transplanted in it. It looks like it was done before Carroll Shelby and the Cobra. So my question is this the true father of the Cobra , with a GM engine and not Shelby and Ford???

Looked at the article. Unclear as to whether the owner who built this one off named it the "Mongoose" or whether it was dubbed such by the article's author. As the first Cobras were already extant as of 1962 and the car which is the subject of the article used a '62 Corvette trans and F85 Olds engine which was circa 1962 the car likely didn't pre-date the Cobra. The article also specifically refers to the Cobra as comparison. The Cobra is further distinguished in body shape refinement, engine suspension and of course name. It is a totally different beast. A Cobra is a Cobra. A Cobra is not a one off with a Chevy motor in an ACE. Moreover, American Iron was being used in foreign bodied cars prior to the Cobra. E.g. the Allard and even teh Ace was using Ford Zephyr engines.

Nice try though but no Cigar. History has been written and the facts are set in stone. All original Cobras were Ford powered and not a one was Chevy powered or even prototyped with Chevy power.

[HealeyRick]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

History has been written and the facts are set in stone. All original Cobras were Ford powered and not a one was Chevy powered or even prototyped with Chevy power.

Technically true, there wasn't a "Cobra" until CS got involved, but Trevor Legate's "Cobra: The First 40 Years" states: "As early as 1957, a development Ace was fitted with a Chevy V8 unit but the weight penalty resulted in a number of problems such as understeer and the collapse of the front suspension" @ 29. Mr. Legate goes on in his chapter entitled "Missing Links" to describe BEX 327, an Ace that was shipped to the US in 1957 without a motor and was fitted stateside with a Corvette V8 as well as some very Cobra-like body mods. @ 32-35. Here's a link to the relevant portions of the book that include a number of pictures of BEX 327: Cobra: The First 40 Years - Trevor Legate - Google Books

Clearly, the idea of big American V8 in a little British car wasn't unique to Shelby nor to AC. The trick was getting everything mixed together with the right ingredients at the right time and this is what made the Cobra what it is. The Ace was one of the best handling British sports cars at the time (certainly better than the Austin-Healey that Shelby had first proposed to use) and the introduction of Ford's thin-wall V8 that was narrower and lighter than the Chevrolet made it a more attractive candidate for swapping into the Ace.

Give Shelby credit, though. He got Ford to give him the motors and got AC to give him the chassis. He came up with a great name and really had an instinct how to publicize the car.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by HealeyRick

Technically true, there wasn't a "Cobra" until CS got involved, but Trevor Legate's "Cobra: The First 40 Years" states: "As early as 1957, a development Ace was fitted with a Chevy V8 unit but the weight penalty resulted in a number of problems such as understeer and the collapse of the front suspension" @ 29. Mr. Legate goes on in his chapter entitled "Missing Links" to describe BEX 327, an Ace that was shipped to the US in 1957 without a motor and was fitted stateside with a Corvette V8 as well as some very Cobra-like body mods. @ 32-35. Here's a link to the relevant portions of the book that include a number of pictures of BEX 327: Cobra: The First 40 Years - Trevor Legate - Google Books

Clearly, the idea of big American V8 in a little British car wasn't unique to Shelby nor to AC. The trick was getting everything mixed together with the right ingredients at the right time and this is what made the Cobra what it is. The Ace was one of the best handling British sports cars at the time (certainly better than the Austin-Healey that Shelby had first proposed to use) and the introduction of Ford's thin-wall V8 that was narrower and lighter than the Chevrolet made it a more attractive candidate for swapping into the Ace.

Give Shelby credit, though. He got Ford to give him the motors and got AC to give him the chassis. He came up with a great name and really had an instinct how to publicize the car.

A little off topic but possibly of interest, George Harm original owner of the Dick Smith SC put a chevy in a 500 TR Ferrari in the late 50's. I made the mistake of racing him in my warmed over 57 Corvette and got my a$$ handed to me. Lots of people were stuffing small block chevy's into anything that was available in those days.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

A little off topic but possibly of interest, George Harm original owner of the Dick Smith SC put a chevy in a 500 TR Ferrari in the late 50's. I made the mistake of racing him in my warmed over 57 Corvette and got my a$$ handed to me. Lots of people were stuffing small block chevy's into anything that was available in those days.

Hehehehe....George.

Course..."reverse engineering" happened on occasion. Imagine the poor basturds thinking they could beat Bill Harrah's Jeep going up the grade from Carson City.

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

So I am looking at ""Cobras & Replicas 1962-1993" a Brooklands Books publication. In it is a two page picture of a car called the "Mongoose". A car built by Jerry Scheberies which is a 1958 AC ACE with a F85 Olds V8 transplanted in it. It looks like it was done before Carroll Shelby and the Cobra. So my question is this the true father of the Cobra , with a GM engine and not Shelby and Ford???

Pretty interesting stuff. I found this post on the ACE forums. Looks like Shelby got his idea from the Mongoose:

AC Owners Club - Walt Petersen "Mongoose"


.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Pretty interesting stuff. I found this post on the ACE forums. Looks like Shelby got his idea from the Mongoose:

AC Owners Club - Walt Petersen "Mongoose"


.

How to you draw this conclusion when history is documented that between 1958 and 1960 CS had already conceived the idea and had the desire to build an economical V8 powered sports car using American muscle and had contacted the Hurlocks as of 1961 with his idea and already had the 260 ci Ford V8 on line for his project?.

This Mongoose couldn't have existed prior to 1962 since it used '62 parts. Furthermore, where is your evidence he even knew of the guys who created this one off "mongoose" or that it even existed? Further, the fact that mongooses kill cobras also gives us a hint as to which came first.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

How to you draw this conclusion when history is documented that between 1958 and 1960 CS had already conceived the idea and had the desire to build an economical V8 powered sports car using American muscle and had contacted the Hurlocks as of 1961 with his idea and already had the 260 ci Ford V8 on line for his project?.

This Mongoose couldn't have existed prior to 1962 since it used '62 parts. Furthermore, where is your evidence he even knew of the guys who created this one off "mongoose" or that it even existed? Further, the fact that mongooses kill cobras also gives us a hint as to which came first.

Digging a little deeper on that thread ...
When I bought Ace BEX1073,with V8 Buick a copy of the Rod and Track article came with the car, infering it was the Mongoose and one of three. Indeed the register at the time confirmed this! However during a sustained digging for the cars history, Mongoose/Scheberries never came up. Eventually I managed to contact Jerry Scheberries by phone in July 2003. He told me that he had only converted one car to V8 spec (Olds)for concours events, it was a 1958 AC engined one. Unfortunately he coud not remember where he got it or the chassis number only that it wsa entered in Pebble Beach in 1961 and that he sold it to a man called "Chuck Hallam" who somtimes acted with Burt Lancaster. Jerry sent me a collage of photos copied onto an A4 sheet depicting his red Ace registration ACA 237 (California plate) original AC engine and later Olds taken in the 60s. The car also has a single thin blade front bumper, flat screen and disc front brakes. Another photo of the car in the Nevada desert shows it with a racing number 44.

[REAL 1]

Pebble Beach Concours takes one offs as entries?

A '58 would qualify for a '61 concours? Really?

How does he enter it in the '61 Concours when it has '62 drive train? Fascinating.

[Jamo]

Can't believe anyone would pick that name except as a response to a snake a la a certain rivalry in funny cars a bit later.

[Thor maine]

Thank you Dr. Sheldon Cooper, now you can return your Star Wars sheets.

[REAL 1]

Thor: You apparently watch too much TV. You should read more.
Suggested reading for you...
Start with the SAAC Registry.

[AL427SBF]

Thor, glad you asked the question about the Mongoose, looks like their was a predecessor to it that is worthy of further digging.

CobraEd, great link with good info to pursue further, Pebble Beach is about an hour south, next trip that way I'll get with someone from historical records and find out what I can about Jerry Scheberries 1958 AC entry in the '61 Pebble Beach Concours.

Evan, oh never mind ...

[REAL 1]

Edit...oops

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Thor, glad you asked the question about the Mongoose, looks like their was a predecessor to it that is worthy of further digging.

CobraEd, great link with good info to pursue further, Pebble Beach is about an hour south, next trip that way I'll get with someone from historical records and find out what I can about Jerry Scheberries 1958 AC entry in the '61 Pebble Beach Concours.

Evan, oh never mind ...

Yes get back to us with that info. Absolutely. See what info they have about it. This is your homework assignment.

[AL427SBF]

Yes, Shelby is to Cobra what Edison was to the Light Bulb.
Trevor Legate = Nikola Tesla

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Yes, Shelby is to Cobra what Edison was to the Light Bulb.
Trevor Legate = Nikola Tesla

Does the term, "fallacy of analogy" mean anything here?

[AL427SBF]

So racing in the SCCA championship events in the USA from 1957 was a Chevrolet V8-engined AC Ace featuring stylish flared bodywork. AC were required to subtly re-design the Ace when it metamorphosed into the Cobra in 1962, but it was hardly a major problem; they had done something very similar some 5 years earlier. Naturally other SCCA racers would have seen this car in action and taken note.

I guess I don't need to take that trip to Pebble Beach after all

[OnyxRider]

I see you guys are keeping this thread rolling.

I thought I kept it simple for one member to understand.

Cobra- 1960's automobile produced by Carroll Shelby's Company.

By that definition a continuation cobra is not a Cobra.

Not sure what a continuation cobra is other than a continuation cobra. Everyone is throwing terms and definitions around...

It's not a reissue because it's not an exact copy.

So it must be a replica of a Cobra...yes a replica of that 1960's automobile by Shelby.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by OnyxRider

Cobra- 1960's automobile produced by Carroll Shelby's Company.

By that definition a continuation cobra is not a Cobra.

Not sure what a continuation cobra is other than a continuation cobra. Everyone is throwing terms and definitions around...

It's not a reissue because it's not an exact copy.

So it must be a replica of a Cobra...yes a replica of that 1960's automobile by Shelby.

Reissues don't have to be exact. Never seen it anywhere (instruments, watches, cars).
Whoever owns the name Cobra, can call whatever a Cobra.
SAAC had to get involved because of the newly built 'Cobras' (SAI and Autocraft, and Kirkham supplying SAI).
And a replica is an exact copy. Aside form being impossible, there's very few of those. Ever see a Pur Sang?
Aaand, some replicas are just as "original" as .... original 60's Cobras.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by OnyxRider

I see you guys are keeping this thread rolling.

I thought I kept it simple for one member to understand.

Cobra- 1960's automobile produced by Carroll Shelby's Company.

By that definition a continuation cobra is not a Cobra.

Not sure what a continuation cobra is other than a continuation cobra. Everyone is throwing terms and definitions around...

It's not a reissue because it's not an exact copy.

So it must be a replica of a Cobra...yes a replica of that 1960's automobile by Shelby.

How did we get back to this? I thought we moved on already.