Anybody lining up for the new Shelby Cobra?

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

"Pat Buckley was the first guy to take one of our machines and make it really nice as a brushed car. It really opened our eyes as to what could be accomplished. He dramatically raised the bar."

Sure did.

We learned a lot from Pat. He is a very talented mechanic.

You have a sweet ride

David

[Bernica]

Last I heard, Amy Boylan was let go from SAI and is now President at West Coast Customs with Ryan. Bud is also no longer at SAI for a while either. Time moves on and things change.

[twobjshelbys]

AC never made a cobra. It was the AC ace. Shelby branded it cobra

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Buzz - I'm not sure it matters
But its a fair question that deserves an answer.

For the sake of argument, the AC in-line 6 2Litre engine, was NOT Shelby's "improved" Ford V8 engine, and it was this change in recipe which "we" admire, love and hope to replicate.

There's a line between taking ingredients, mixing them to bake/improve your cake, vs what seemingly is hopping down to the bakery, buying a cake and swapping the wrapping.

Or is that thought out of line?

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

AC never made a cobra. It was the AC ace. Shelby branded it cobra

Shelby initiated the Cobra project, but once that was done, AC did very much make a Cobra; and that is what I refer to as opposed to the Ace. There were AC Cobras (COB and COX series) produced and sold that had no Shelby branding and they continued producing them long after Shelby shut down their Cobra operation. Prime example is the AC 289 sports that used a small block in the "old" 427 body style.

My point is that the original Shelby CSX cars enjoy a significant premium price advantage over the basically identical COB cars of the same era because of that Shelby mystique, marketing and overall cachet. Same situation with Shelby and Kirkham today.

One question though, for those in the know (the more -ahem- elderly fellas that is ) - was there a significant retail price premium for the CSX Cobras vs. the COB Cobras back in the day?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Buzz

Shelby initiated the Cobra project, but once that was done, AC did very much make a Cobra; and that is what I refer to as opposed to the Ace. There were AC Cobras (COB and COX series) produced and sold that had no Shelby branding and they continued producing them long after Shelby shut down their Cobra operation. Prime example is the AC 289 sports that used a small block in the "old" 427 body style.

My point is that the original Shelby CSX cars enjoy a significant premium price advantage over the basically identical COB cars of the same era because of that Shelby mystique, marketing and overall cachet. Same situation with Shelby and Kirkham today.

One question though, for those in the know (the more -ahem- elderly fellas that is ) - was there a significant retail price premium for the CSX Cobras vs. the COB Cobras back in the day?

Give that man a cigar. Correcto.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Give that man a cigar. Correcto.

Yup! Not much different from back when AC was shipping rollers to SAI in Venice, CA or their LAX facility back in the day. Let's also not forget that Ford shipped mustangs to SAI in the same fashion. Shelby just did final fit-up, badging and put their own touch on all of them.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Buzz

My point is that the original Shelby CSX cars enjoy a significant premium price advantage over the basically identical COB cars of the same era because of that Shelby mystique, marketing and overall cachet. Same situation with Shelby and Kirkham today.

I get why there's a premium on a CSX vs a COB car of yesteryear.
However, I can't see how the playing field is remotely the same today.

Shelby developed and improved the recipe via the R&D of their racing arm to suggest there was a value add. THEY pioneered all the "improvements". Yes?

But SHELBY aren't doing that now. That's the other mob! No?
What's shelbys value add now? A signed MSO and paint?
For mine, that is not adding or improving the recipe.
That's where I fail to see the parallel.

Back in the 60s Shelby didn't change the wrapping!
He changed the heart and soul (read: engine and driving sensation).

ALL the R&D (and manufacturing) that improves the recipe today comes from Kirkham. Including the desire to improve the "heart and soul".
ie. Engine part development, suspension development, exhaust development, reducing weight, stiffening the chassis (even developing a billet version), and then trivial things like gauge development, wiring loom development... Blah blah blah...
Actually they've pretty much stollen the formula that made Shelby!


So seemingly there IS some parallel...except it's been turned on its head and Shelby aren't leading the charge. Nor are they manufacturing anything. Today they are just following. No?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

I get why there's a premium on a CSX vs a COB car of yesteryear.
However, I can't see how the playing field is remotely the same today.

Shelby developed and improved the recipe via the R&D of their racing arm to suggest there was a value add. THEY pioneered all the "improvements". Yes?

But SHELBY aren't doing that now. That's the other mob! No?
What's shelbys value add now? A signed MSO and paint?
For mine, that is not adding or improving the recipe.
That's where I fail to see the parallel.

Back in the 60s Shelby didn't change the wrapping!
He changed the heart and soul (read: engine and driving sensation).

ALL the R&D (and manufacturing) that improves the recipe today comes from Kirkham. Including the desire to improve the "heart and soul".
ie. Engine part development, suspension development, exhaust development, reducing weight, stiffening the chassis (even developing a billet version), and then trivial things like gauge development, wiring loom development... Blah blah blah...
Actually they've pretty much stollen the formula that made Shelby!


So seemingly there IS some parallel...except it's been turned on its head and Shelby aren't leading the charge. Nor are they manufacturing anything. Today they are just following. No?

The parallel is there just as in the 60's regardless of any modifications in geometry or materials.

In the 60's Shelby improved the AC in various ways in the process of the car morphing into a Cobra. Those improvements carried through production at AC once made and the CSX cars coming in were re-badged, painted and sold.

Same for the earlier CSX Continuatin series except SAI made the changes in the chassis' received.

Later Shelbys see the mods being made by Kirkham deviating from original with billet components etc and Shelby receiving the chassis and rebadging and painting and selling.

As far as leading the "charge" what charge are you referring to? There is only so much you can do with a 50+ year old design. I wouldn't refer to modifications to geometry and materials leading a "charge".

Regardless of who is responsible for the updates in materials or adjustments to geometry the basic formula is still there. Body and Chassis hand built by an outside vendor and Shelby Taking delivery and reselling and up fitting with its materials, gauges and other touches etc....

There are many who want slight improvements in geometry and billet materials etc... There are those who are purists and want it the way "it was". After all when you want to duplicate one of the most iconic cars of all time it is only truly duplicated when the original receipe' is followed in all respects which receipe is set in stone and long ego established. You can't improve the heart and soul of what a Cobra is by deviating from what it was. You may change it and improve it's handling, it's power, its comfort and whatever else you want to your liking but then it moves away from center as to what it is supposed to be historically which is the "way it was" which is what a Cobra is. A "Cobra" has a character based on its original design and performce. That character is purist when the receipe is followed without deviation. You can change things but that changes character to your liking but dilutes the pure character of a "Cobra".

Kapesh?

Personally, I think SAI should not used "improved geometry" or anything visual that deviates from the original design. I think their cars should be kept true to the their Cobra of the past. Only if specified by the customer should SAI deviate.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

There are those who are purists and want it the way "it was". After all when you want to duplicate one of the most iconic cars of all time it is only truly duplicated when the original receipe' is followed in all respects which receipe is set in stone and long ego established. You can't improve the heart and soul of what a Cobra is by deviating from what it was. You may change it and improve it's handling, it's power, its comfort and whatever else you want to your liking but then it moves away from center as to what it is supposed to be historically which is the "way it was" which is what a Cobra is. A "Cobra" has a character based on its original design and performce. That character is purist when the receipe is followed without deviation. You can change things but that changes character to your liking but dilutes the pure character of a "Cobra".

Kapesh?

Nope, no Kapesh. The "purity" argument is nonsense to me, because you don't own a 1960's original CSX2000 or 3000. The rest are replicas of the original. And the "purist" who tries to replicate the original with his or her Kirkham, Shelby, ERA, etc. is just exercising their brain cells to stave off dementia.

IMO, there is no reason not to use better suspension, brakes, Tremecs, engines, hose clamps, gauges, wiring, one trunk battery, etc., but admittedly, there are "purists" out there, but to me, that's the "greater fool theory."

Purity? On a CSX4000? Stop, you're killing me.

[Nedsel]

[quote=Dimis;1334261]I get why there's a premium on a CSX vs a COB car of yesteryear. QUOTE]

You do? Great. Please explain it, because I have often wondered about it. AC Cars builds a car minus engine/transmission, and sends it to CA, where they add the aforesaid equipment. Or, AC Cars builds a complete car on one assembly line. Apart from the badges, what's the difference in the cars? Or does anyone think Shelby himself actually did any work on the cars shipped to him?

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

You do? Great. Please explain it, because I have often wondered about it. AC Cars builds a car minus engine/transmission, and sends it to CA, where they add the aforesaid equipment. Or, AC Cars builds a complete car on one assembly line. Apart from the badges, what's the difference in the cars? Or does anyone think Shelby himself actually did any work on the cars shipped to him?

Welll I have my theory... But I fear you'll all ban my ar$e for stating it!

So I'll put it this way and if you can read between the lines great.
If not, I'm a PM away.

For the same reason US college tuition fees outstrip those of other global universities for equivalent degrees.

[Trueoo7]

"Now I can definitely see people asking, why pay so much more than the base price of a Kirkham for a Shelby. But then again, there are a lot of options available from Kirkham and they can add up really fast. The price of a well optioned Kirkham can be significantly higher than the base price. Perhaps we can think of the Shelby product as a well optioned Kirkham with a really nice paint job and the Shelby brand name. And I think we know that Shelby has customer out there willing to pay their price."

Funny thing is, if this was reversed, it would be considered a knockoff and that would be deceitful and you would be thrown in jail. I guess if you copy something and sell up, then its
OK. It just doesn't seem right, "either way".

[Buzz]

Shelby isn't copying anything. Kirkham supplies them with a roller that they complete and sell as a Shelby Cobra - notwithstanding a few details, much the same as was the arrangement between Shelby and AC back in the 60's.

[RodKnock]

Oh, and I forgot. Fiat-Chrysler is selling Ferrari.

[bret a ewing]

............Shelby stock is .15.

[Bernica]

Yup. A "Penny Stock".
They need to do whatever they have to in order to survive.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Yup. A "Penny Stock".
They need to do whatever they have to in order to survive.

For a while it was a dollar stock. Following my usual buy high sell low luck that is when I bought mine. They are worth more printed and sold on ebay as a memento.

[4pipes]

This form of masterbation is always fun but tiring to read. Eventually, you get sore.
Perhaps I'm projecting, but most people that buy anything but an original Cobra manufactured in the 60's, don't consider their purchase an appreciating asset. To assign different values to these non original cars is fruitless, all that matters is when you sell, you find a buyer that loves the car as much as you did. How it looks, drives and sounds becomes more important than marketing scripted provenance.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

This form of masterbation is always fun but tiring to read. Eventually, you get sore.
Perhaps I'm projecting, but most people that buy anything but an original Cobra manufactured in the 60's, don't consider their purchase an appreciating asset. To assign different values to these non original cars is fruitless, all that matters is when you sell, you find a buyer that loves the car as much as you did. How it looks, drives and sounds becomes more important than marketing scripted provenance.

Dave, FWIW, while I didn't buy my Kirkham for an appreciating asset, nevertheless the darn things have appreciated to some degree. A "file finish" Kirkham roller with no options is now $80K. And as but one example, those Shelby alloy blocks are now significantly more to purchase than when I bought mine too.

And other manufacturers have also had some appreciation, including obviously the continuation Shelby Cobras. So speaking for myself, value matters.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Dave, FWIW, while I didn't buy my Kirkham for an appreciating asset, nevertheless the darn things have appreciated to some degree. A "file finish" Kirkham roller with no options is now $80K. And as but one example, those Shelby alloy blocks are now significantly more to purchase than when I bought mine too.

And other manufacturers have also had some appreciation, including obviously the continuation Shelby Cobras. So speaking for myself, value matters.

I couldn't agree more. My CSX 4000 series with all Shelby components including the aluminum engine has only gone up in value in the past 16 years or so...