Engine Option (Just For Discussion)

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

The fact that the LS head is based solely on the Cleveland head should be a dead giveaway.

Ummm... I'm going to need to see your documented sources on that one.

The cylinder heads on all GM GenIII /GenIV performance engines were designed by Ron Sperry, using combustion chamber and port symmetries first used on the NASCAR Chevy small blocks in the late 80's, and first applied to street engines with the single-year LT4 small block in 1996.

Ron Sperry has worked as a racing engine designer for many teams during his long career with GM (going all the way back to 1963); but he has no prior association with the Ford/Lincoln Cleveland cylinder head design, nor with Cosworth.

And, if GM had "based" their cylinder head design on Ford-owned intellectual property, Ford would have raised patent infringement lawsuits long before the first LS1 Corvette rolled out of a showroom in 1997

The major US car companies ALL give away FREE pre-production examples of their significant new car designs to their competitors to disassemble and evaluate in the interest of patent, copyright, and trademark protection.

Ford R&D had its hands on a pre-production Corvette LS1 in fall of 1995. No lawsuits were ever filed by Ford regarding ANY component in the LS1 engine.

Fact is fact (and Thor Maine is correct ) - The GM GenIII and GenIV engines are the most efficient (and durable) naturally aspirated street V8 engines (in terms of torque and HP per unit of displacement) available today, and they achieved most of this efficiency through materials science and friction management.

The LS1 cylinder heads were simply the crown upon the throne, but no part of that crown was forged in Cleveland Ohio.

The Coyote engine is VERY close to "catching up" with GM's GenIII in the performance engine department, but if you guys want to have an honest discussion about who's copying whom, then let's start with GM's 18 year head-start over Ford in the compact aluminum V8 street engine department... We can start with the "coincidence" that the 1997 LS1's corkscrew style phenolic plastic intake manifold now finds a rendition of itself sitting atop the 2015 Shelby GT350 Coyote engine... (GM owns the materials patent on the all-plastic intake, BTW- GM makes money on every car Ford sells with a black plastic intake manifold )

We could also discuss the fact that Corvette Racing/Pratt and Miller have dominated both IMSA and FIA for DECADES longer than Ford did back in the late 1960's.

Ford says they're coming back to racing with the new 2017 GT- It will be interesting to see if they can repeat history and de-throne the sitting King.

[Thor maine]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

ummm... I'm going to need to see your documented sources on that one.

The cylinder heads on all gm geniii /geniv performance engines were designed by ron sperry, using combustion chamber and port symmetries first used on the nascar chevy small blocks in the late 80's, and first applied to street engines with the single-year lt4 small block in 1996.

Ron sperry has worked as a racing engine designer for many teams during his long career with gm (going all the way back to 1963); but he has no prior association with the ford/lincoln cleveland cylinder head design, nor with cosworth.

And, if gm had "based" their cylinder head design on ford-owned intellectual property, ford would have raised patent infringement lawsuits long before the first ls1 corvette rolled out of a showroom in 1997

the major us car companies all give away free pre-production examples of their significant new car designs to their competitors to disassemble and evaluate in the interest of patent, copyright, and trademark protection.

Ford r&d had its hands on a pre-production corvette ls1 in fall of 2005. No lawsuits were ever filed by ford regarding any component in the ls1 engine.

Fact is fact (and thor maine is correct ) - the gm geniii and geniv engines are the most efficient (and durable) naturally aspirated street v8 engines (in terms of torque and hp per unit of displacement) available today, and they achieved most of this efficiency through materials science and friction management.

The ls1 cylinder heads were simply the crown upon the throne, but no part of that crown was forged in cleveland ohio.

The coyote engine is very close to "catching up" with gm's geniii in the performance engine department, but if you guys want to have an honest discussion about who's copying whom, then let's start with gm's 18 year head-start over ford in the compact aluminum v8 street engine department... We can start with the "coincidence" that the 1997 ls1's corkscrew style phenolic plastic intake manifold now finds a rendition of itself sitting atop the 2015 shelby gt350 coyote engine... (gm owns the materials patent on the all-plastic intake, btw- gm makes money on every car ford sells with a black plastic intake manifold )

we could also discuss the fact that corvette racing/pratt and miller have dominated both imsa and fia for decades longer than ford did back in the late 1960's.

Ford says they're coming back to racing with the new 2017 gt- it will be interesting to see if they can repeat history and de-throne the sitting king.

Yeah what he said!!!

[blykins]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

Ummm... I'm going to need to see your documented sources on that one.

The cylinder heads on all GM GenIII /GenIV performance engines were designed by Ron Sperry, using combustion chamber and port symmetries first used on the NASCAR Chevy small blocks in the late 80's, and first applied to street engines with the single-year LT4 small block in 1996.

Ron Sperry has worked as a racing engine designer for many teams during his long career with GM (going all the way back to 1963); but he has no prior association with the Ford/Lincoln Cleveland cylinder head design, nor with Cosworth.

And, if GM had "based" their cylinder head design on Ford-owned intellectual property, Ford would have raised patent infringement lawsuits long before the first LS1 Corvette rolled out of a showroom in 1997

The major US car companies ALL give away FREE pre-production examples of their significant new car designs to their competitors to disassemble and evaluate in the interest of patent, copyright, and trademark protection.

Ford R&D had its hands on a pre-production Corvette LS1 in fall of 2005. No lawsuits were ever filed by Ford regarding ANY component in the LS1 engine.

Fact is fact (and Thor Maine is correct ) - The GM GenIII and GenIV engines are the most efficient (and durable) naturally aspirated street V8 engines (in terms of torque and HP per unit of displacement) available today, and they achieved most of this efficiency through materials science and friction management.

The LS1 cylinder heads were simply the crown upon the throne, but no part of that crown was forged in Cleveland Ohio.

The Coyote engine is VERY close to "catching up" with GM's GenIII in the performance engine department, but if you guys want to have an honest discussion about who's copying whom, then let's start with GM's 18 year head-start over Ford in the compact aluminum V8 street engine department... We can start with the "coincidence" that the 1997 LS1's corkscrew style phenolic plastic intake manifold now finds a rendition of itself sitting atop the 2015 Shelby GT350 Coyote engine... (GM owns the materials patent on the all-plastic intake, BTW- GM makes money on every car Ford sells with a black plastic intake manifold )

We could also discuss the fact that Corvette Racing/Pratt and Miller have dominated both IMSA and FIA for DECADES longer than Ford did back in the late 1960's.

Ford says they're coming back to racing with the new 2017 GT- It will be interesting to see if they can repeat history and de-throne the sitting King.

Do some research on valve angles, valve diameters, bore spacing, etc. An LS head will bolt directly to a Windsor block. Don't have time to get into a back and forth on it.....Ford guys will be Ford guys and Chevy guys will be Chevy guys.

I personally don't understand what the big deal is about the LS motor. Exhaust side of the head is so inefficient that the cam needs about 30 degrees of duration split to crutch it. New Corvette is rated at 460 hp with 378 cubic inches. What's so outstanding about that? Sure, it's a nice engine, but to make a stupid statement like it's a better engine than anything that Ford ever had is well........a stupid statement.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

Do some research on valve angles, valve diameters, bore spacing, etc. An LS head will bolt directly to a Windsor block. Don't have time to get into a back and forth on it.....

This is not accurate - It's true that GM LS style engines share bore centerlines with Ford Windsors, but they also share bore centerlines with GenI GM small blocks.

They will not "bolt directly" to a Ford Windsor. They can be made to bolt on by re-machining and re-threading the corner bolts in the Windsor block, but that accomplishes nothing, unless you designed a custom cam and pushrods to activate the valves.

Originally Posted by blykins

Ford guys will be Ford guys and Chevy guys will be Chevy guys.

Very true, and I don't begrudge anybody for brand loyalty (We all know the best, most wicked sounding engine for a Cobra would be a Mopar 426 Hemi anyway, right..?)

Originally Posted by blykins

I personally don't understand what the big deal is about the LS motor. Exhaust side of the head is so inefficient that the cam needs about 30 degrees of duration split to crutch it.

This is also technically inaccurate - The excess exhaust duration in stock GM LS engines is to improve the engine's "natural EGR" abilities. It has nothing to do with exhaust scavenging or HP - LS racing engines all run tighter cam patterns than stock street engines

Originally Posted by blykins

New Corvette is rated at 460 hp with 378 cubic inches. What's so outstanding about that?

Haha - I'll let those numbers speak for themselves - 460 NET HP from a naturally aspirated, 378 Cubic inch engine.

If that engine was tested and gross-rated the way they rated engines back in the 60's you'd be talking about 550+ HP- All from an engine that has also been durability tested, and EPA certified, to be US Federal emissions compliant for over 100,000 service miles (and also gets well over 20 MPG on the highway).

You show me Ford's equivalent NA engine, and I'll go crawl back under my rock.

Originally Posted by blykins

to make a stupid statement like it's a better engine than anything that Ford ever had is well........a stupid statement.

Show me the evidence.

[Bartruff1]

A Ford V8.....of the size you want..... to do the driving you intend to do.... and the money you are willing to spend ....

I wouldn't buy a engine to impress anyone other than me

[blykins]

As I mentioned, go look up the valve angles, etc. You'll be a little enlightened.

You need to speak to a builder who is well-versed in LS engines before you spout off "EGR abilities". The intake/exhaust flow is so horrible on some of the LS cylinder heads that the intake/exhaust ratio was well under 70%.....very poor, even by Ford FE standards.

Not sure how comparing a full race head to a street head is apples to apples, but if you want to go that direction, I would be inclined to say that the GM race cars didn't pull the heads right off the parts counter at the local dealer. Of course the camshaft selection would be different because the heads are not stock!

I'm not talking about how they rated them in the 60's. I'm talking about how they rate them now, and 1.2 hp/ci is actually pretty pathetic. Any professional builder here could take a 378 inch SBF and make 460 hp in a streetable form. Not to mention that naturally aspirated 5.0L Fords make 435 hp.....explain to me what's so nice about an LS?????

But if you want to make a comparison on how things were in the 60's, then remind me how many times Chevy won Lemans.....

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

1.2 hp/ci is actually pretty pathetic. Any professional builder here could take a 378 inch SBF and make 460 hp in a streetable form.

I agree- But how much more is the customer going to pay for a custom engine, versus ordering a complete 500HP LS376 for $8200, right off the shelf?

I'm talking about "easily available, ready to run, off the shelf (or out of the junkyard)" engines.

And make no mistake - I'm not advocating that ANYONE should consider putting a GM engine in their Cobra replica, which would be tantamount to the similar sacrilege of putting an FE in your 62 Corvette. Some things are better left un-done.

But I still contend that Thor Maine's initial point is a valid one -

Originally Posted by blykins

Not to mention that naturally aspirated 5.0L Fords make 435 hp.....explain to me what's so nice about an LS?????

You're right- 1.4 is WAY better than 1.2.... in fact, it's .85% better

However, the Coyote weighs 430 pounds, to the GM's 418 pounds, which is 2% heavier, so the HP to weight ratio still favors the GM engine.

Originally Posted by blykins

But if you want to make a comparison on how things were in the 60's, then remind me how many times Chevy won Lemans.....

1960, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006

Ford won 1666, 1967, 1968, 1969

These are class-wins, and it is true that Ford has more overall wins at Lemans than Chevy (4-0) But, if we want to use that metric as a guideline for engine selection, then we should all be running Porsches (17 overall victories)...

[blykins]

Yeah, because that 12 lbs makes all the difference.

And yes, 1.4 is greater than 1.2. And trust me, from an engine builder's standpoint that is a HUGE difference....

The point here is that before anyone starts making comments about how the LS is superior to any Ford, then I would refer them back to that hp/ci number. It boils down to efficiency.

From my standpoint, very few will pay that $8200 because most guys don't want cookie cutter engines, which is the basically the staple of the GM family.