XHP 260 and aluminum blocks

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by DMXF

Guido36, first of all whatever Wouter Melissen states on that site is tainted by his use of the word "alloy". While some people associate it with meaning aluminum, look up the definition, alloy simply means there is a mixture of different constituents in the metal. Steels are made in different alloys.

The first GT40(s) in '64 were fitted with the all aluminum Indy engine, which is different in virtually every aspect from the engines installed in Cobras. When Shelby was given the responsibility for fielding the GT40's, as part of his changes he pulled those engines and installed his cast iron Cobra units.

The word "alloy" could simply be referring to the high nickel content used in the 427 SO blocks and may have been experimented with in the 260 blocks, but it's still an iron block.
my 2 c

[Guido36]

In English speaking countries outside the U.S., in my experience the term 'alloy' is used interchangeably with 'aluminium'. If an engine is said to be 'alloy' it implies 'aluminium' or aluminum in American parlance. So I would think that Wouter Melissen did indeed mean aluminum when he used the term 'alloy'. You will find 'alloy wheels' in the U.K. is as commonly used as 'mags' in the U.S., which are seldom magnesium but used to describe any lightweight alloy wheel.... Confused? Me too!

[DMXF]

Originally Posted by Guido36

In English speaking countries outside the U.S., in my experience the term 'alloy' is used interchangeably with 'aluminium'

Sounds more like it depends on whether they had any engineering education or not

[strictlypersonl]

Originally Posted by DMXF

Sounds more like it depends on whether they had any engineering education or not

On the gt40s.com forum, the Brits use "ally" frequently, but I've never seen "alloy" for aluminum.

[xb-60]

Here in Australia, what you call 'mag' wheels, we call alloy wheels

[Buzz]

Over the years I've grown quite accustomed to Brits and Aussies using "alloy" as a nickname for aluminum, particularly in the automotive press. I don't think it's based in ignorance or a lack of education in metallurgy, it's simply a term - probably morphed from a marriage of "ally" and "aluminium alloy" - that slowly worked its way into mainstream use in their automotive culture. No more deserving of judgmental criticism than others who call all custom wheels "mags" in total disregard of the fact that they don't contain a single atom of magnesium.

[Guido36]

The 1964 Sunbeam Lister Tiger Le Mans coupes of which three were built are also listed as having XHP-260 engines with 'alloy' block and heads.

[MAStuart]

Dan what's the deal on the 2 restamped to 4? What's the possibility the engine is the same one that alexopm said was fitted to the De Tomaso? He said it was shipped here and then removed in the same time frame as the one installed in the Ferrari. What I have been reading makes me wonder about it. Where do the XhP 260 numbers that were installed in cobra come from?

[Harpoon PV2]

Well, there is no question where XPH-260-1 went! It is still in CSX2000. Here it is at Dean Moon's shop, on that legendary night. The gentleman with the white hat is Roy Gammell, not sure who the other man is?

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Harpoon PV2

Well, there is no question where XPH-260-1 went! It is still in CSX2000. ...

CSX2000’s original engine was a 1962 model Ford Fairlane 221 2V one. After A.C. Cars removed it prior to the car being sent to California, it dropped out any memory or record I have been able to locate on either side of the ocean.


Dean Moon’s shop installed an engine identified as XHP-260-1 on its rocker arm covers.


Shelby American employee John Morton reported in his book that the engine installed to complete the car in California got into poor condition and was replaced.


That is perhaps the explanation of the engine with a rocker arm cover marked XHP-260-5 being used in CSX2000 published by Hot Rod Magazine.


Before Jim Cowles passed away, he tried to get the current owners of the car to positively identify the engine or at least the cylinder block in CSX2000 this century. All he got back was a poor quality cell phone picture of the stamping. What is in the car today still has to wait on somebody getting a clear view of the stamping.

[Harpoon PV2]

Originally Posted by Dan Case

CSX2000’s original engine was a 1962 model Ford Fairlane 221 2V one. After A.C. Cars removed it prior to the car being sent to California, it dropped out any memory or record I have been able to locate on either side of the ocean.

The 221 myth wont die! When Barrie Bird of Scotland, was looking for a small block Ford for his repatriated CSX2003, he approached AC to buy the prototype engine. When he got it back to his shop and took the heads off, they were amazed how good it was, then they measured the bores. It came out to 4.2 liters, or 260ci. Ford didn't bother to tell either Shelby or AC! Not the last time they would do that, they didn't tell either, that the big block chassis were suppose to be longer, thus ruining all that great computer designed rear end suspension! Cheers, Dennis

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Harpoon PV2

The 221 myth wont die! When Barrie Bird of Scotland, was looking for a small block Ford for his repatriated CSX2003, he approached AC to buy the prototype engine. When he got it back to his shop and took the heads off, they were amazed how good it was, then they measured the bores. It came out to 4.2 liters, or 260ci. Ford didn't bother to tell either Shelby or AC! Not the last time they would do that, they didn't tell either, that the big block chassis were suppose to be longer, thus ruining all that great computer designed rear end suspension! Cheers, Dennis

Barrie sent me pictures of the intake manifold from his engine and it is a 1963 model year 260 4V intake manifold design. It does not have a SK or XE engineering casting number on it visible in the over head view picture. Barrie’s intake does not have the key design detail of the 1962 design Ford Fairlane iron intake manifolds. It looks like a 4V version of the 221/260 2V intake manifold introduced in the summer of 1962 for the 1963 model year. No, that does not hint at when it was made and intakes were not date stamped when they were machined.


The big issue for us to understand is the timing of cylinder block manufacture. Engines and their subsequent history begin there. Barrie never sent me the casting number, the block casting date, or the engine assembly date (if it has not been milled off) from the block he has. The prototype 260 engine cylinder blocks dates we know of were cast in late March 1962. XHP-260-4’s cylinder block was cast March 27, 1962. It was not announced that the Ford 260 2V engine was available for dealers to start ordering in new cars until February 17, 1962.


SAAC reports that CSX2000 was a running car in February 1962 and one of the books in my Cobra related library reports CSX2000 without engine or transmission was sent by air to Shelby February 16, 1962.


If Barrie were to provide the casting engineering number, casting date, and assembly date (if it has not been milled off) from his engine this might be understood better.



See also:

Dave Friedman’s “SHELBY AMERICAN UP CLOSE AND BEHIND THE SCENES 1962-1965: THE VENICE YEARS” pages 12-14 that covers the 221 c.i.d. engine subject and has pictures of CSX2000 under construction in England with the engine Mr. Shelby sent to them in the chassis. From a direct Don Frye [Ford Motor Company] quote, “…Dave [edit - Dave Evans of Ford Motor Company] had sent a couple of our old 221-cubic-inch engines to Carroll [edit- summer 1961] and by the time I met Carroll, Shelby had shipped one of the engines to AC Cars in England to work out the installation in what was to become the first Cobra.” The engine in the car has a Ford 2100 2V carburetor.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Dan what's the deal on the 2 restamped to 4? What's the possibility the engine is the same one that alexopm said was fitted to the De Tomaso? He said it was shipped here and then removed in the same time frame as the one installed in the Ferrari. What I have been reading makes me wonder about it. Where do the XhP 260 numbers that were installed in cobra come from?

Your speculation is a good as anybody else's. Never mind how one engine could be installed and running in two different countries at the same time, how likely was it that a new car dealership and the Cobra owner removed the engine, crated it up well, took care of customs paper work and or any tariffs, loaned it to be used a long way off, get it returned, and then passed it on to a Ferrari owner? Why bother, Ford and Shelby had new engines in shipping crates and people to deal with shipping anywhere.

I would still like to see pictures of the engine in question. I found multiple references to the De Tomaso P70 car receiving a 289 size engine and a picture car before painting with the rear body work open with a engine with 4-2V Weber carburetors. Craig’s engine had and has been using just an prototype 260 4V iron intake since 1962 as far as the people that have known the Ferrari for decades. The prototype iron 4V 260 Ford iron intake manifold on Craig’s engine is casting “SK 12569” and intake assembly “SK 14036 $2A” (or serial number 2 of that version).

What are the low hanging fruit possibilities for Ford Fairlane engines with a “4” serial number.

Ford Numbered Engines

Experimental High Performance 260 (15 each made)

High Performance 260 (185 each made)

Experimental High Performance 289 five bolt bell housing (We have no idea how many were built in 1962 but #11 was logged as going into a racing Cobra.)

Production High Performance 289 five bolt bell housing (Less than ten and least three went into Cobras before March 2, 1963. The serial number of one has been published. Otherwise at least four of the first nine went into new Cobras.)

Experimental High Performance 289 six bolt bell housing. We have no idea how many were made or where they all went but Bob Mannel owned the near complete XHP-289-1 six bolt engine for several years.

Numbered by somebody else

Shelby American race shop assigned numbers to race engines.

Ford Advanced Vehicles had their own number system I have been told but I do not know for sure.

Holman-Moody had their own numbering system.

Lots of chances for a “4” engine in the 1962-63 time frame.

We have seen another block stamped XHP-260-2-something. In both cases, a little effort was used to deface the 2. Craig's engine also has cylinder block assembly number "C2OE6010J ASSY 4A" hand stamped into it. Another researcher, yes more than myself are still hunting technical details that can be documented, reported that engine XHP-260-2-14 went into a new Cobra. There is published picture showing an engine with a rocker arm cover marked XHP-260-14.

In the last week someone tried to get pictures of the stamping on CSX2008's cylinder block for me while Tom Cotter does his story on CSX3001 and CSX2008. Another set of dark cell phone pictures. I can just read enough to tell the block is from an XHP-260 engine. There is a chance that another researcher will get to examine the engines in both cars before they go back into storage. I was invited to do so, but it wouldn’t work out for me.

Where do the numbers come from, factory or magazine pictures from the time, a little factory documentation, and information hand stamped into cylinder blocks.

[Harpoon PV2]

You will get a kick out of this Dan, this is CSX2005 engine as it looks today, I doubt the -5 on the valve covers? I know engines were haphazard in their allocation. I am pretty sure none of the Hugus cars got the XPH engines, and I think neither did Tasca. Hugus said he supplied only complete cars to Tasca? That would screw up all the matching numbers! Cheers, Dennis

[MAStuart]

Thanks Dan. I like a good mystery. Why is the cobra that XHP 260 - 4 came out of unknown? I hope it is not just because someone said it was. Now days everyone selling 289 parts or engines thinks they are HiPo's or the stuff came from a cobra or shelby. The chevy guys are the same way. Its like every small block chevy came from a Corvette.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Thanks Dan. I like a good mystery. Why is the cobra that XHP 260 - 4 came out of unknown? I hope it is not just because someone said it was. Now days everyone selling 289 parts or engines thinks they are HiPo's or the stuff came from a cobra or shelby. The chevy guys are the same way. Its like every small block chevy came from a Corvette.

I feel compelled to say unknown because zero new car documentation has turned up. No documentation like a mid-1960s bill of sale for the engine has turned up. People have hunted. Having a real good idea about anything about any subject does not mean it can be substantiated in any way. Think about current my quest to learn what the engine core in CSX2008 is today. Somebody just days ago looked for me and took some pictures but the pictures did not positively identify what I was interested in. I can just read enough to know it started off as a prototype something. Even if we determine what the car has today, that does not prove it was using the same engine in 1962.

[Harpoon PV2]

I think I found the smoking gun on the AC prototype 260 rather then the 221! It was hiding in plain sight in Trever Legate's book, Cobra The First Forty Years. First, indulge me with a little pat on the back! I stated that Carrol was on top of Pikes Peak for the 1961 Hill Climb, when he asked GM executives to use the Buick aluminum small block engine. What did happen, at about the same time Derek Hurlock, sent a letter to GM asking for the same engine, of course we know how this ended, a big fat no! Buick was making a deal where Rover would get all the tooling and even the chief engineer, Joe Turlay, so no dice. Of course, Shelby probably wasn't on top of the peak when he asked, he probably was down in Manitou Springs at one of the rented garages, or at the Broadmoor Hotel, or the Antlers Hotel, in Colorado Springs, where a lot of the Big Three executives stayed during the race. But, he was there! While it was a big set back for Carrol, fate was about to smile on him in a big way!

I will let Trevor take up the story on page 43 of his book: "but by chance he had recently met Dave Evans of Ford at the Pikes Peak hillclimb, in Colorado during July. He had been told that Ford were in the process of embarking on a whole new marketing strategy called 'Total Performance' aimed at a huge push into all forms of motor sport and was developing a new range of lightweight V8 engines as a result. Shelby decided it would do no harm to drop a letter to Evans at Dearborn to outline his plan. Evans, to his eternal credit, was not just a senior executive at a major automobile manufacturer, but that rare creature, a car enthusiast who happened to also work in the automotive industry. He phoned Shelby as soon as he received his letter, a meeting was planned and the salesman in Shelby sweet-talked two 221cu.in Fairlane engines on credit and $25,000 to 'blow the doors off the Corvette'. With the authority of Dave Evans, the engines were sent to Dean Moon's hotrod shop in Santa Fe to see what Shelby could do with them." I know what you are thinking, there the proof other prototype 221 engine, well, as Paul Harvey would always say, "and now for the rest of the story". "To Shelby's surprise, Evans was not yet finished for he received another call from him to say , that he was sending two further, brand new, high performance he versions of the Fairlane motor, now increased to 260cu.in".

This was sometime after The Forth of July1961. Shelby's first letter arrived at AC on September 8, 1961. The prototype engine arrived at AC at the beginning of November. So the XHP engines were preproduction engines, which makes sense. There were apparently one hundred produced, and they were doled out to racing teems around the world. Rallye racing was a big recipient of these engines, and the UK were big on that form of racing. So it would not have been much of a problem, to divert one to AC. So when that mysteries Japanese engine showed up from FoMoCo, they may have thought it was a 221, or the crate was miss labeled, hence, the Ace 3.6! Keep in mind, Shelby hadn't even been to AC yet. With the XHP-260 engine, why would they send over a 221?

I have never heard of a 221 being sold by Shelby, so did they ever get two? We know AC sold a 260 to Barrie Bird, which was said to be the prototype, what other reason would AC need with a stray engine? All the other engines they got, went into cars. It appears there never were any 221 engines in the Cobra program! Cheers, Dennis

[Harpoon PV2]

I fixed it! Just needed more space between paragraphs! Cheers, Dennis

[Alfa02]

Gentlemen, I have an even a better mystery. Back in the 60's, Pete Lovely (F-1 and famous Sports Car racer) needed a V-8 to put in his car he was building (The Lovely) he contacted long time friend & Racer Shelby and asked if he had a hopped-up Cobra engine he could put in his Lovely, Shelby sent an XHP-260, which is still in that car. Drew @ "The Cobra Experience" owns the Lovely. I tried to buy the car a couple years ago, to bring it back to Pacific Northwest where it belongs, Pete lived in Tacoma most of his life. We were off a by a few thousand, we both agreed the motor should be left in the Lovely (For now) The only reason the Lovely is in Drews collection is because of the motor. I reached out to a friend that was in charge of Petes estate, the Lovely and as he said "A ton of Org. Cobra parts" were sold to a collector ??, the collector did not want the Lovely so Drew bought it, Does anyone know what motor is in the Lovely?? Thank you for any info. Cheers Tom.