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Old 02-27-2018, 06:55 AM
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Default MSD fuel injection

I am thinking about changing from carb to fuel injection. What is the consensus on MSD's product. Ease of install and tuning? I already have fuel pump, regulator, return line and exhaust bung in both exhaust pipes. Thanks for any input.
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Old 02-27-2018, 07:50 AM
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I currently have the FiTech Go 600 system and am very happy with it.
I'm sure the MSD Atomic is a great system as its been around for approx 6 years now. The MSD Stealth I've not heard anything on.

This matrix chart may help you decide on which unit to purchase based on options and pricing.
http://image.superchevy.com/f/102114...-breakdown.jpg
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:00 AM
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The chart is a fairly comprehensive representation of the more advertised EFI systems available today. While you are in the shopping mode you might want to condsider which of two basic camps you want to set up shop in — either speed density or MAF based EFI systems.

The speed density uses a MAP (manifold pressure) based fueling algorithm while the MAF based system actually measures the mass flow of air and calculates a corresponding injector pulse width (for your injector size) to provide the corresponding mass flow of fuel to hit your commanded air fuel ratio, which is a mass referenced metric.

The other thing you might want to spend some time considering is the MSPro-Ultimate (<=clickable) system from AMP/EFI. This is a productized, factory manufactured modern day version of the original Bowling & Grippo MegaSquirt do it yourself Heath-kit style EFI system — except factory manufactured with a Lifetime Warranty.

The MSPro-Ultimate will provide you the ability to use speed density or MAF based fuel control (or several others) while providing a large number of engine management options that you would need to go to a Haltech or Motec system to duplicate. The MSPro-Ultimate is likely the least expensive most fully featured system available with more inservice time than any other commercially available EFI system today.

Most EFI systems use a constant flow fueling model with a pressure regulator to return unused fuel to the tank. The MSPro-Ultimate provides the same capability but also offers a returnless model strikingly similar to some of the Detroit returnless models that allows the operation of the engine w/o a pressure regulator.

The big deal about no regulator is if you have an 800 hp capable fuel system and are driving around town using 25 - 50 HP to move the car, you need to continuously return 750HP+ worth of fuel through your pressure regulator back to the tank. Aside from the obvious flow restriction and squirrely AFR management issues this creates, it also heats your fuel to engine compartment temps.

The fuel heating is unlikely to cause a vapor lock issue because of the higher fuel pressures EFI systems operate at. However the higher temperatures in a return style system will boil off the light ends that the refinery adds to the fuel to create high octane fuel from refinery base stock. This loss of octane will occur in the return line under low pressure as the unused fuel is returned to the tank.

Gasoline light ends vaporize below 100˚F usually around 87 to 90˚F. The upshot is you go from a mid to high 90 octane fuel to a high 80's to low 90's octane fuel in a matter of an hour or so of driving. Which begs the question, why did you spend the additional money for the high octane fuel? We all understand low octane and the impact it has on engine performance and tuning. This is one of those situations where you don't have to suffer self inflicted victimization.

BTW the MSPro-Ultimate comes with one of the more attractive and easy to understand / use tuner interfaces. It is written by TunerStudio and runs native on either PC or Mac platforms. You can download a copy to look at for free off their site.

Check them and check out the downloadable version of their TunerStudio tuning software. I think you will be impressed.


Ed


p.s. You might want to think that you won't be doing the tuning because you will buy that service from someone. I will suggest there is no one more interested in tuning your engine correctly than you are and at around $500 per shot (or more) for dyno and tuning time you will be many dollars ahead doing it yourself. Of course if you are totally disinterested or incapable, then its just a matter of finding the right guy and paying him. Most systems today do have a self learning capability that can get you in the ball park and let you finesse your tune from there.
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Last edited by eschaider; 02-27-2018 at 09:35 AM.. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:24 AM
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I should have mentioned fuel pumps. This discussion is independent of whose EFI system you choose to use.

There are two broad electric pump styles — in tank and external. In tank is the quieter and more scalable of the two. One of the best systems available today is the Fore Innovations fuel hat that places the pumps into your tank. It goes though a hole in the the top of the tank uses an OEM gasket to seal and can be had in single, double, triple or quad pump configurations depending on your power level.

N/A engines below 1200 hp typically can easily get away with a large single or dual pump configuration. Here is a link to what one of the Universal Hat solutions they offer looks like => Fore Dual Pump Hat

If you decide to go the supercharged route, you will need a large dual or triple pump hat, depending on how high you decide to push your hp target.


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Old 02-28-2018, 04:28 AM
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A lot to consider The tuning aspect is of my concern. That is why i went to a carb to begin with. Spent a lot of $ with no success when switching to larger injectors with vortec pressure change. I am not going to change. Thanks Ed
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Old 02-28-2018, 11:36 AM
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No problem, Hinoonaz.

The important thing is that you are happy with your toy. All the rest falls in place somewhere down the line ...


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Old 04-01-2018, 11:07 PM
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Hinoonaz,

The problem I have with many of the EFI kits is they do not come with a built in pressure regulator. This adds at least $100 extra cost. After much study, I bought the Holley Sniper EFI from www.efisystempro.com. They are more knowledgeable than anyone about these systems. Plus they run discounts that can really help.

I had a small tuning problem getting my idle speed set right and a quick read of their tuning section and a piece of tape solved the issue quickly.

I have just documented my install on the topic "EFI Anyone?"
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:45 AM
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I'm running an MS3 pro return system using a 1200cfm Boss EFI throttle body. The MS3pro also allowed me to incorporate going multi coil and drop the distributor. My motor is an alcohol burner to bypass emissions. Ed offers some good advice.

Best advice I could offer is that I would get a system that does not mandate the throttle body and fuel management system be tied together as a single unit. It is convenient, but will cost more to repair or upgrade in the future.

Ed, I am curious and don't mean anything negative. Did you just type that up or cut and past? That's a lot of well written words for an internet forum.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:36 AM
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It was just off the cuff trying to be responsive to the issues the OP tabled as being important to him plus a couple he did not table that I thought might be helpful for him.

Your MSPro-Ultimate experience is much like others I have persuaded to use or found already using the MSPro system. The user interface on the system that the guys at EFI Analytics / TunerStudio have built for the system is easily the best on the market today. The expansion capabilities for toys like EGT, Digital dashes etc compare very favorably with systems costing 3X the price of the MSPro-Ultimate.

Not to be an advertisement, although that is the way this feels, some other things I liked about the system were the ability to use virtually any sensors you wanted because the system allows you to calibrate for your sensor of choice. Another item, near and dear to me for my implementation, was the ability to support a returnless fuel system model. The B&G guys built the returnless logic right into the system for us.

The big benefit of the returnless fuel system model is that the pumps are manipulated using a pulse width modulated signal, in real time, to supply only the amount of fuel needed by the engine. This turns out to be a big deal if you have a high horsepower implementation and is how Ford implemented their EFI for the supercharged but street driven vehicles they offer.

You need to build the fuel system to be capable of sustaining the engine's max power level with sufficient head room for the good air days. That means you end up driving around with say a 550 HP (or larger) fuel system returning all but 25 HP worth of fuel to the tank around town or even on the highway.

The issue becomes the fuel being heated to engine compartment temps before the surplus fuel is returned to the tank by the fuel pressure regulator. The octane enhancers the refinery and the distributor add to the fuel base stock for our high octane needs, boil off at around 87˚F.

As the unused fuel is being returned to the tank, these important (for us) octane enhancers disassociate with the fuel base stock in the return line on the way back to the tank. Like a stale beer or soda, you just can't get the fizz or the octane enhancers reassociated with the beer or the gasoline base stock. Suddenly you have a tank of 87 octane gasoline.

One of the sure signs of this disassociation is the whooshing sound you get when you remove the cap from the tank to fill up at the gas station. The whoosh you hear is the disassociated octane enhancers in vapor form literally going out the filler neck into the atmosphere.

The returnless fuel system model protects against this unhappy ending but requires a bit more effort tuning the MSPro-Ultimate's fuel system delivery PID driver to control pump overshoot. You also need to use turbine pumps with the system if you intend to manage the fuel system this way. The turbine pumps allow the speed variations the pulse width modified (PWM) fuel pump driver will command of the pumps — which MSPro thoughtfully supports. The pumps are easily obtainable and competitively priced with non turbine designs.

Once you start comparison shopping for EFI systems the feature set that the MSPro-Ultimate system provides is very comparable to Haltech, Motec and other high end systems costing thousands more. An extra added attraction is the MSPro user interface on the tuning software. It is much easier to understand, learn and use.

MSPro is among the oldest aftermarket suppliers of universal EFI systems, the current MSPro-Ultimate generation is factory assembled with a lifetime warranty, field upgradeable firmware and if you want to you can even wirelessly program your engine from your notebook. The tuning software is available for either Mac or PC.

If anyone reading this post has not guessed by now, I am modestly impressed with the MSPro-Ultimate offering...


Ed
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:19 PM
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I solved my fuel heating issue by running alcohol. Reduce the fuel mileage enough and it won't have time.
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:40 PM
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Creative solution, Mike.

Ed
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