A Cobra Valuation question

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by Blue66

I changed one back in the mid 70's. I believe the car still has them. The original went to a CSX32** car that was rebuilt.

What is your feeling about wide being a more desirable body than narrow? Preference-wise? Value-wise?

Thank you for your help, @blue66.

[1985 CCX]

In general narrow is a lower production number offering so ... Yup
Still its the car itself nothing to do with other cars. That is how Cobra's are judged.

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

In general narrow is a lower production number offering so ... Yup
Still its the car itself nothing to do with other cars. That is how Cobra's are judged.

Thanks, again. My takeaway from your response is that wide hip Cobras are preferred over narrow hip Cobras.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

Thanks, again. My takeaway from your response is that wide hip Cobras are preferred over narrow hip Cobras.

When Cobras went out of production, there was a period of time during which they were simply regarded as used sports cars. They were a bit pricey compared to regular sports cars of similar vintage, but that was only because they were relatively expensive when new. As the muscle car craze and horsepower wars began to peak in the late '60's and early '70's, the raw performance potential of the Cobras brought them back into the limelight, and the baddest of them all was the iconic 427SC with its signature wide flares, huge sidepipes, roll bar and of course - the 427 Side oiler engine.

The vast majority of Cobras - both 289 and 427 - were sold as street cars and though a 289 was still no slouch performance wise, it was the 427's that became the top dog Cobra to own. Owners of narrow hipped 427 street roadsters wanting their car to emulate the fire breathing SC cars added the flares, bars and pipes. The pedigree of the racing 289's was not really a big thing then because - remember, many of them were either still being raced by privateers or they were balled-up, beat-up wrecks with little perceived value.

Fast forward to the post muscle car era and the stratospheric auction prices being commanded by LS6 Chevelles, Fairlane Thunderbolts, Hemi Cuda convertibles and of course - Cobras. The replica industry was also churning out 427SC replicas and the old V8 powered Shelby roadsters were suddenly among the most sought-after collector cars on the planet. As the collector craze grew and matured, traits like model rarity, originality and racing pedigree became value adders and the racing history of the once (relatively) lowly 289's brought them into the limelight.

So (very) generally speaking today in values determined largely by hammer prices at auction, the low production and iconic 427SC Cobras are still top dollar cars but an unmolested narrow hip 427 Roadster will be worth more than one with added on SC flares and regalia - even if those modifications were done back in the '60's by an original owner. A street 427/428 car will outbid a street 289 unless of course we're talking about Carroll Shelby's personal car or the 289 driven on TV by Honey West. And let's not even get into the Daytona Coupes or the ultra collectibles like the 427 Super Snake.

So to address the quoted statement; to the average car nut - yes - the wide hip 427 Cobras with roll bar and side pipes are the quintessential and most desirable version of the Cobra while classic sports car connoisseurs might gravitate to the more svelte and subtle narrow hip 427 street or the 289 roadster. Collectors and investors - who largely drive real world auction values - as others here have posted, look at individual cars and price them based on the rarity and pedigree factors mentioned above. In a nutshell - the answer is "It depends."

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

The car in question was stored in a barn in 1980. The owners, XXXX XXXX asked XXXX’ brother, XXXX, to store the car at his property in XXXX. In 2018, after Mr. XXXX passing, Mrs. XXXX learned that XXXX sold the car without a title which is in her possession and without her knowledge.

Mrs XXXX may have a copy of the cars title, but perhaps Mr XXXX had requested a duplicate title for the car, having not been able to find the original at the time of "trade" between Mr XXXX and his brother. The DMV would need to dig deep in to their archives in an attempt to find whether a duplicate title was ever requested.

Now, where I find a slight hiccup in Mrs XXXX assertion of "loss of use", since the car was inoperable, there was no use at that time, and even if there was, Mr XXXX's brother could have easily charged $100 or more a month in storage fees between 1980 and 2018. Say $100-$500 a month is the going rate for indoor storage of an inoperable "collector car", times that by 38 years, and your storage costs are quite costly . As an inoperable car, with no meaningful racing history, stored correctly or not, but now needing $400,000+ in restoration, strictly from sitting unused for 38 years.....Now you want to speak about value, or value due to loss of use.......Well, I think you get where I'm going with this..

In closing, as they say, there are three sides to a story, his story, her story, and the truth............

I'll leave it at that, for now.

Bill S.

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Mrs XXXX may have a copy of the cars title, but perhaps Mr XXXX had requested a duplicate title for the car, having not been able to find the original at the time of "trade" between Mr XXXX and his brother. The DMV would need to dig deep in to their archives in an attempt to find whether a duplicate title was ever requested.

Now, where I find a slight hiccup in Mrs XXXX assertion of "loss of use", since the car was inoperable, there was no use at that time, and even if there was, Mr XXXX's brother could have easily charged $100 or more a month in storage fees between 1980 and 2018. Say $100-$500 a month is the going rate for indoor storage of an inoperable "collector car", times that by 38 years, and your storage costs are quite costly . As an inoperable car, with no meaningful racing history, stored correctly or not, but now needing $400,000+ in restoration, strictly from sitting unused for 38 years.....Now you want to speak about value, or value due to loss of use.......Well, I think you get where I'm going with this..

In closing, as they say, there are three sides to a story, his story, her story, and the truth............

I'll leave it at that, for now.

Bill S.

Hi Bill, The inner workings of who promised whom, storage issues, etc. aren't my concern. BTW, the car was not inoperable from 1980 to 2018. During that time period it had a spun bearing repaired and was given a paint job.

The adverse party is alleging that this car, in good working order, wasn't worth nearly as much as either a raced Cobra, a wide hip or a 289. This is what I'm either going to agree with or dispute. From what I have learned from various sources, raced cars (289s) may be worth a little more, wide-hipped models are not worth more and non-raced 289s are worth less.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

Hi Bill, The inner workings of who promised whom, storage issues, etc. aren't my concern. BTW, the car was not inoperable from 1980 to 2018. During that time period it had a spun bearing repaired and was given a paint job.

The adverse party is alleging that this car, in good working order, wasn't worth nearly as much as either a raced Cobra, a wide hip or a 289. This is what I'm either going to agree with or dispute. From what I have learned from various sources, raced cars (289s) may be worth a little more, wide-hipped models are not worth more and non-raced 289s are worth less.

A car raced vs a car not raced, in original Cobra circles depends on where it was raced, who sponsored the car, and who the drivers were. Additionally, where the car(s) in question finished in those races. Then we can go for the originality of the car, and all of it's components. Repaints can hurt the value of the car, missing major original components can and due hurt the value of a car not raced. Originality is key when it comes to the top value of a car with no race history, as the car in question apparently is. Is the original date coded, drivetrain intact? What about all the minor items like hoses, belts, dated hose clamps, suspension pieces, etc and so forth? What about the repaint, was the car stripped to bare metal and properly prepped and repainted, yup, you guessed it, another ding to the valuation of the car. Modifications from stock, another ding in valuation. As stated earlier, each car is valued on it's own, against itself, so using any other car for a valuation of what is, or what is not, is like asking what shade of blue the sky is over my head vs over your head, 100's, if not 1,000's of miles away from each other. So far, I've yet to see anything that can quantify the value of the car in question, at the time it was placed into storage, vs the cars value now, which quite frankly, appears to be the only real motivation of you as the poster, to get involved. Are you an interested 3rd party in the case for one side or the other? Or perhaps just a keyboard jockey hoping to "break the case wide open with your skills of deduction" using what is posted here by others as your "own exhaustive research". No offense, but those of us who have been around here for the last 20+ years, have seen it before.

So, value now, vs value then, and whether there was a verbal agreement to store the car for a set time period, at which time, if a fee was not paid, or another term between the two brothers was not met, the car could be sold. Or again, perhaps the idea of a duplicate title being presented to the brother of the old owner is the nail on the head. As time goes by, memories become foggy, and items thought to be fact, may not always be the case. Fast forward to now, and greed has sadly thrown into the mix....Greed and someone, perhaps a relative, guiding the wife of the dearly departed down a path that she should never have followed. He said, she said, they said, all irrelevant as the husband has departed this world, and any conversations he had with his brother are now consider hearsay, unless of course there is something in writing that you failed to previously mention. Again, all for the courts and attorneys to opine , all while billing their clients with glee.

Bill S.

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

A car raced vs a car not raced, in original Cobra circles depends on where it was raced, who sponsored the car, and who the drivers were. Additionally, where the car(s) in question finished in those races. Then we can go for the originality of the car, and all of it's components. Repaints can hurt the value of the car, missing major original components can and due hurt the value of a car not raced. Originality is key when it comes to the top value of a car with no race history, as the car in question apparently is. Is the original date coded, drivetrain intact? What about all the minor items like hoses, belts, dated hose clamps, suspension pieces, etc and so forth? What about the repaint, was the car stripped to bare metal and properly prepped and repainted, yup, you guessed it, another ding to the valuation of the car. Modifications from stock, another ding in valuation. As stated earlier, each car is valued on it's own, against itself, so using any other car for a valuation of what is, or what is not, is like asking what shade of blue the sky is over my head vs over your head, 100's, if not 1,000's of miles away from each other. So far, I've yet to see anything that can quantify the value of the car in question, at the time it was placed into storage, vs the cars value now, which quite frankly, appears to be the only real motivation of you as the poster, to get involved. Are you an interested 3rd party in the case for one side or the other? Or perhaps just a keyboard jockey hoping to "break the case wide open with your skills of deduction" using what is posted here by others as your "own exhaustive research". No offense, but those of us who have been around here for the last 20+ years, have seen it before.

So, value now, vs value then, and whether there was a verbal agreement to store the car for a set time period, at which time, if a fee was not paid, or another term between the two brothers was not met, the car could be sold. Or again, perhaps the idea of a duplicate title being presented to the brother of the old owner is the nail on the head. As time goes by, memories become foggy, and items thought to be fact, may not always be the case. Fast forward to now, and greed has sadly thrown into the mix....Greed and someone, perhaps a relative, guiding the wife of the dearly departed down a path that she should never have followed. He said, she said, they said, all irrelevant as the husband has departed this world, and any conversations he had with his brother are now consider hearsay, unless of course there is something in writing that you failed to previously mention. Again, all for the courts and attorneys to opine , all while billing their clients with glee.

Bill S.

Your insult aside, I am not getting paid for this. The attorneys are a different matter but they aren't here asking for help, I am. Thanks.

[HTM101]

1985 CCX and Buzz offered very good responses to STLUCIE's request.

Then the usual protagonists stepped in and the surgery began. Next STLUCIE dug in and managed to amp up the protagonists' evisceration.

The thread could have been educational.

[patrickt]

Hmmm, it's almost like someone set about to fire off one carefully crafted post solely designed to create a series of chain branching reactions.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Hmmm, it's almost like someone set about to fire off one carefully crafted post solely designed to create a series of chain branching reactions.

Your welcome


Bill S.

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by HTM101

1985 CCX and Buzz offered very good responses to STLUCIE's request.

Then the usual protagonists stepped in and the surgery began. Next STLUCIE dug in and managed to amp up the protagonists' evisceration.

The thread could have been educational.

Thank you. I don't mind answering the trolls because among them are folks who actually want to talk about Cobras.

Again, I am an appraiser who has been working for the original owners of CSX3145. They are pursuing a Loss of Use case. I prepared my appraisal last year and was deposed afterward. The adverse party's expert was also recently deposed. Their expert had the following notions that I will ask about for the umpteenth time. For those folks looking for some secret agenda or have a problem with my putting them in their place, why not just sit the rest of this discussion out? It has never been my intention to "eviscerate" people but when you are punched in the face for no good reason, most of us tend to punch back.

1) Regarding "historical significance", I am of the opinion that all of the 998 Cobras built fall into this category. That there is a Cobra registry accentuates that point. Is there anything to the notion that only raced Cobras have historical significance?

2) Are the non-raced 289 Cobras more desirable than the 427 Cobras?

3) The narrow-hip Cobras are rarer but are they typically less (or more) sought after?

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

Thank you. I don't mind answering the trolls because among them are folks who actually want to talk about Cobras.

Again, I am an appraiser who has been working for the original owners of CSX3145. They are pursuing a Loss of Use case. I prepared my appraisal last year and was deposed afterward. The adverse party's expert was also recently deposed. Their expert had the following notions that I will ask about for the umpteenth time. For those folks looking for some secret agenda or have a problem with my putting them in their place, why not just sit the rest of this discussion out? It has never been my intention to "eviscerate" people but when you are punched in the face for no good reason, most of us tend to punch back.

1) Regarding "historical significance", I am of the opinion that all of the 998 Cobras built fall into this category. That there is a Cobra registry accentuates that point. Is there anything to the notion that only raced Cobras have historical significance?

2) Are the non-raced 289 Cobras more desirable than the 427 Cobras?

3) The narrow-hip Cobras are rarer but are they typically less (or more) sought after?

I can't speak for others but that's enough "full disclosure" IMO. Your initial error in the assertion that Shelby actually raced in a small-block Cobra got some people smelling a rat, but to me that's just a common misconception among regular folks who are not Cobra enthusiasts. So - all the other stuff aside - did you get your answers to the questions above? In between the back and forth, I think they were pretty much addressed.

EDIT: just to conclude - here are the answers in a nutshell.

1) All Cobras are highly sought after collectible cars, but some; due to factors like racing pedigree, celebrity ownership or some other part of their history that sets them apart; are considered more "historically significant" than the regular cars.

2) No - not according to the historical market, but some enthusiasts absolutely do prefer the small-block cars.

3) This one is somewhat debatable - but generally speaking, an unmodified narrow hip street car will usually command a premium over a street roadster that has been modified to look like a comp or SC Cobra. Both will usually trade for less than a genuine, original comp or SC Cobra. Pedigree factors for example the two Supersnakes - one of which was built for Bill (the pill) Cosby or the Cobra that starred in Gumball Rally (1976) will trump the other factors - historical significance at work again.

[STLUCIE]

Originally Posted by Buzz

I can't speak for others but that's enough "full disclosure" IMO. Your initial error in the assertion that Shelby actually raced in a small-block Cobra got some people smelling a rat, but to me that's just a common misconception among regular folks who are not Cobra enthusiasts. So - all the other stuff aside - did you get your answers to the questions above? In between the back and forth, I think they were pretty much addressed.

Hi Buzz, There probably aren't definitive answers to these questions but I have gained much insight, here and elsewhere, into how collectors feel about Cobras. A raced 289 would have a little more prestige than CSX3145. A 427 is more desirable than a non-raced 289 and a narrow vs. wide hip car is a matter of preference. I also firmly believe that all Cobras are historically significant - not just those that appeared on racetracks.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

A raced 289 would have a little more prestige than CSX3145.

Yes, see my earlier response

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

A 427 is more desirable than a non-raced 289 and a narrow vs. wide hip car is a matter of preference.

100% correct, it is a matter of personal taste, a buyers money, spent the way they want to. Just as if they were shopping for a new car and deciding what color to choose.

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

I also firmly believe that all Cobras are historically significant - not just those that appeared on racetracks.

Well, yes, and no, the more "history" a car has, the more "historically significant" it is.

IE: A car driven hard and put away broken is less valuable than a car raced, wrecked, rebuilt, and raced again.

Or

A car owned by a well known movie star being more "historically significant" than a car owned by someone without such a heritage.


Bill S.

PS: I'm surprised you did not ask these same questions on the saacforum.com site, as they deal with originals on a daily basis.

[Blue66]

Originally Posted by STLUCIE

What is your feeling about wide being a more desirable body than narrow? Preference-wise? Value-wise?

Thank you for your help, @blue66.

Just personal opinion. Even buying one today I'd pass. Everyone has opinions