ERA vs SPF

[James Baldwin]

Congrats Ray! I know you will enjoy it. And at 6'4", you'll fit just fine.

[BANDIT 1]

Mr. Real 1:

If you are a "shelby Cobra" expert then you should know this is common knowledge. I should hope that in 30+ years technology has improved. Why would there be any questioning that the "original" Cobra's and the Superformance Cobra's would drive differently? The cars are almost 100% totally different under the body. The body is different, the engine, transmission, seats, battery location, brakes, fan location, etc...

I never said the Shelby race car drivers said the 289 Cobra was faster than a 427 Cobra, I said they thought they were lucky to be alive after racing one. Shouldn't it only make sense that a driver driving a 289 Cobra in a race "on the edge" and a driver driving a 427 Cobra in a race "on the edge" would be worlds apart.

Quit taking everything so personal, I belong to a local Cobra club with all kinds of Cobra's. They are all great in there own way, period. We have several CSX4000 series Cobra's in the club (and some "originals") and they are a sight to behold. On a summer day the sun shines on the Aluminum body and the car itself send a certain kind of a rush that in my book only a "original" or "new" Shelby Cobra can have. The 500 horsepower 427 S.O. looks awesome in the engine bay and sounds even better. Those are all things my Superformance Cobra don't have, but if we pull out on the hiway they all know that my 110 Octane burning 650 horsepower 520 c.i. 5 speed car is going to kick the $hit out of them.

So what, they are all nice in there own way...

[TerrysSPF]

Good choice Ray! .....but seriously, when you're choosing between 2 companies like SPF and ERA, you couldn't have made a "bad" choice. BOTH cars / companies are great and have great people working for them. You're in good company choosing the SPF though:

"When I think back on my racing career, the biggest thrills of my life were being involved with Shelby American, winning Le Mans with Dan Gurney in 1964 in the Daytona Coupe and being part of the Cobra team that won the World Championship in 1965. I am often asked what my favorite street Cobra would be - whether I would prefer the 289 or the 427 roadster. I don't really have to think about that - my favorite exist. It's the Superformance with a 351 engine. It is the car that Shelby SHOULD have built - a coil spring 427 chassis with a small block engine. And Superformance is the best of all replicas by far. I have one and at my driving school in Phoenix I often teach new Superformance owners how to drive them". - Bob Bondurant

"During the 60's I was developer and driver for John Willment Racing in England and I was part of the Cobra team that won the World Sports Car Championship in 1965. I worked very close with Jim Price, President of Superformance, during the development phase of the Superformance prototypes, in my view the finest replica of the finest road-going sports car ever created - so much so that I chose to become a Superformance dealer. When I sit behind the familiar instrument cluster and windscreen of this superbly detailed and authentic replica, its not difficult to figure out why I compared and eventually selected Superformance as the brand with which I prefer to be associated". - Bob Olthoff

[KeithBrown]

Originally posted by BANDIT 1


Mr. Real 1:

If you are a "shelby Cobra" expert then you should know this is common knowledge. ...

Bandit 1,

I too have heard the reference you refered to, but I also heard it was an old wives tale and couldn't be confirmed. Maybe someone like one of the Kirkham's could clarify this.

Sometimes - just sometimes - Evan is right

Regards,

Keith

[REAL 1]

I don't profess to be an expert on Shelby Cobras. I do have some knowledge though.

You said that every racer who raced the 427 said it was there least favorite car. I asked for specific references since you said it was in "every" article you read.

I do agree that it is common knowledge (common knowledge to people familiar with Cobras anyway) that you better know what you are doing if you are going to "race" a Cobra. BB or SB primarily due to its short wheel base.

I also agree that automotive technology has advanced in 30 years. Ok. Agreed. I also agree that the SPF and the CSX are quite different in frame/chasis design. Different or new doesn't necessarily mean better or equate to providing an advantage.

I simply wanted to know what technological advancements or advantages the SPF has over a CSX. Both have 90 inch wheelbases both have similar track width. I know that SPF will say the SPF chasis is stiffer. Maybe. I'm not convinced and I'm not convinced it is even a difference that will make a difference assuming equal drivers and suspension set up. I'm not saying it won't. I'm just saying I'm not sure I believe there is much difference.

I have tremendous respect for B. Bondurant and Oltoff as drivers and their accomplishments. I, however, must discount somewhat their statements based on their own ties to SPF and their SPF buisness efforts.

As to a built up SB producing 650 hp all I can say is I am sure it is very fast. Faster than the original cars ever were I'm sure. But thats not what I'm into. Doesn't impress me.

An original spec 450hp to 500hp 427SO is all I'll ever need to scare the $hit out of myself and friends, wow'em at cruise night and blow off the most recent "Fast & Furious" wannabee.

In the end I still think the SPF is a very nice product.

[BANDIT 1]

I do not have the time to dig up every article I have ever read, however as I say again "to race a 427 Cobra (back in the 1960's) with the tire technology of the time, would have to be the ride of your life". All that has changed is the tire technology on the "new" CSX4000 Cobra's. Are we going to think that ERA, Superformance, or any other company could not improve on a early 1960's designed car?

Let's say that you are into a old car like a 1967 Mustang. It is common knowledge (look in any 5.0, Mustang, Fabulous Fords, etc... magazine) that there are companies that sale "new improved" parts for these cars. We are talking suspension, brakes, steering, etc... Are these car companies all lying and there are no "new" parts that can compare to the "stock" Mustang parts?

I did not get into this thread to argue which car is better, my comment started when people started saying the ERA Cobra is better because it is more like the "original" Cobra's. My statement is that Superformance set out to buid a "modern" Cobra, they did not set out to build a 100% "replica" of the "original". My .002 cents worth were simple...

1. If you want a 99.9% exact "replica" of a Shelby Cobra, you can't go wrong with a mid - low 12 second 1/4 mile ERA Cobra.

2. If you want a "modern" Cobra with all new parts (I am not saying ERA is using used parts...), modern engines (460/514/520/557/351/396/408 etc...), modern 5 speed or 6 speed transmissions, etc... and you don't want to lose a race with your kids 16 year old friend in his Dodge Turbo Neon (that runs high 11's in the 1/4 mile), the Superformance Cobra is a great choice.

3. If you want a "real" Shelby Cobra, a 100% identical to the 1960's "original" Shelby Cobra's, then you purchase a Shelby America Inc. (or a "authorized" Kirkham) Cobra.

[Great Asp]

I don't profess to be an expert on Shelby Cobras. I do have some knowledge though.

Evan,

I'm not a doctor, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night!

Eric

PS just ribbin' ya!!

[REAL 1]

Eric: You finally said something that made me laugh. Very clever.

Bandit 1: I'm not arguing with you. I was just asking you to cite references to some of your very specific comments and broad statements as to the 427 being the least favorite car of 60's racers. Thats all.

I agree that many thought they were a hand full. But in the right hands very effective.

Personally, my racing abilities are best reserved for peddle cars as noted before.

[jhein]

kumbaya my lord kumbaya, kumbaya my lord kumbaya, oh lo,ord kumbaya...

This was such a nice thread before...

SPF's rock! LOL.

John
SPF1421

[TerrysSPF]

[quote]Originally posted by REAL 1
I have tremendous respect for B. Bondurant and Oltoff as drivers and their accomplishments. I, however, must discount somewhat their statements based on their own ties to SPF and their SPF buisness efforts.

I believe both these guys researched many different replica companies and ended up choosing a Superformance as their car of choice............SUPERFORMANCE didn't choose THEM. I'm sure either gentlemen could have picked ANY company they wanted, and I'm sure ANY replica company would have been happy to of had them driving one of THEIR cars instead, and have both guys names on THEIR brochures. I would bet that you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what these guys say about SPF if they were talking about CSX4000 cars instead! In fact, I think you would argue that, if ANYONE should know about who's replica drives / handles the best, it would be THESE 2 guys!

I don't know you (except what I've read in your post the past couple months) so, this is JMHO.

[Buzz]

In response to your point about whether SPF chose Bondurant and Olthoff or vice versa; did Shelby choose to endorse the FWD Dodge Charger because it was such a great performance car or did Chrysler choose him as a marketable name with a credible performance/racing pedigree? Business is business. Also, when people say that the ERA is more "like the original" they are referring to the look of the body and not an absolute duplication of the warts-and-all 60's design. It has been repeatedly established that ERA has made many improvements over the originals and focus mainly on maintaining an authentic appearance where it's visible ie: the tubular X-brace in the front of the chassis where it can be seen in the engine compartment. If you want an example of a replica that strove to mimic the original in almost every way, look at High Tech. Peerless among (mostly) glass cars in that respect. No disrespect to SPF at all - they are great at what they set out to be. But comparing them head to head with the average ERA is like comparing a BMW M3 to a Ferarri 360. Both great. One more mainstream / production line / owner friendly / practical. The other is a work of art that requires more effort to own and keep properly and is the cup o' tea of a different breed of owner.
To answer any prospective buyer's question about the two; it depends on what you want a Cobra replica for and what the whole "Cobra" thing means to you.

[ERA 626]

Bandit 1

"If you want a 99.9% exact "replica" of a Shelby Cobra, you can't go wrong with a mid - low 12 second 1/4 mile ERA Cobra."

Who are you to say that every ERA cobra is a 12 second car??
I think that that is an ignorant comment.

[Great Asp]

Buzz,

I think it is fair to compare the two cars, since people decide between them (I did too). But they are different cars.

There is a good post above that well out lines the differances between the cars. I will not repost it.

No biggy, I just think you can compare them. After all, they are both Cobras.

Eric

[Excaliber]

MrMike,,,,I didn't see the 12 sec 1/4 mile times referenced above as a reflection of ALL ERA's. I bet it's mostly true though, as most of them do have Big Blocks. 99.9% correct may be a bit of stretch on that part, (the body is glass after all, it REALly is). lol

A spokesman allied with one builder (SPF) HAS to be taken with a little grain of salt, he can't help but be prejudice. No matter HOW he got there.

SPF or ERA? I'd lean toward the ERA car, but I'd be looking closely at any price difference also.

Ernie

[Buzz]

No argument there, Great One. I didn't mean to say that the two can't be compared. I mainly wanted to respond to the suggestion that the ERA was flawed compared to the more modern SPF because of its faithful duplication of the 60's original. I also wanted to submit that the two cars are different enough in approach and execution to make an absolute answer to the "which is better" question almost impossible given that it would be hugely dependent on the priorities and conceptions of the beholder (buyer).

[decooney]

...a few pics botched together and borrowed from this thread and the ERA website.

Enjoy no matter what you own or desire.

Sometimes pictures are worth a thousand words.

[Excaliber]

Well the difference is obvious in the pics,,,the ERA has white letters on the tires!

Ernie

[REAL 1]

TerrySPF: I didn't say I dismiss what BB or Oltoff said about the SPF. Read what I said. Are you saying that you accept what they say without question or consideration of motive and the possibility that they are putting the product in its best light in view of their business connection and profit motive. Is it because they are speaking of a SPF that TerrySPF blindly believes?

Bob Bondurant said according to you that the "SPF was the car Shelby should have built". Lets discuss this a little shall we?

What does that mean? Why? Do you agree with it? Why? I'm not so sure I agree for many reasons. Does this mean Shelby should have built fiberglass and incur a weight disadvantage? As to engine, were 351's even available at that time and if so were they comparable to the 351W of today and its performance? If the 427 Cobra wasn't born and it was a 351 Cobra instead how would that have changed history? The 427 still would not have been homologated in time for FIA. The GT40 program still would have eclipsed the Cobra and most of all putting a SB in the Cobra instead of the vaunted 427SO may have torpedoed the Cobra from becoming the legend it became and is today which in short means that maybe SPF wouldn't even exist because there would not have been a market for Cobra replicas.

What about Mr. Bondurant's statement "SPF was the best of all replicas by far". Thats sounds like more a statement of fact than an expression of opinion to me. So I say Whoa! Not so fast there bucko! I don't care if he is Bob Bondurant I don't necessarily have to buy what he's selling. And lets be clear he was selling. SPF the best replica? No way. The "best by far"? Double no way. Its a nice car and good product. But the "best by far"? Very, very debatable. Moreover what does "best" mean.

When push comes to shove I think that the ERA is better for many reasons from aesthetics, to chasis, to suspension espeically with ERA's new outboard rear brake option. Thats my humble opinion. Not that I'm slamming SPF but a top of the line ERA trumps a SPF.

It seems to me that Bondurant's quote you posted as to SPF being the best was "puffing" shall we say.

As to Oltoff's statement its clear he has close ties to SPF. He admits it. He is close with the owner and was involved in the development of the SPF itself. Clearly he has some bias. Not that thats bad. We all have bias'. But we must look at the bias when weighing the comments. Oltoff statements are clear statement of his opinion. He is entitled to his opinion. Everyone is. I just disagree that the SPF is the "finest replica". I also disagree that its the finest replica of the "finest road going sports car ever made". I don't think the Cobra was the "finest" road going sports car ever made. It was the fastest in its time and offered more performance than any other. But finest? Nah.

More puffing. But thats OK. They are entitled to puff and put their product in their best light. I'm sure Oltoff does believe the SPF is the "best" replica. I just disagree. I just weigh the statements accordingly.

Let me ask you this. If Bondurant and Oltoff where extolling the virtues of the CSX based on a business relationship with SAI what are the odds that you would be discounting what they had to say? I'd say those odds would be pretty good.

SAI wasn't around again when B.Bondurant or Oltoff began their relationship with SPF. Maybe if SAI was around Bob or Oltoff or both would have chosen to be a SAI dealer. Who knows.

Also the fact that they chose SPF doesn't impress me either. As far as I know SPF was the only company offering a dealer network at the time. But I can see why they would want to be a dealer. The SPF is a nice product and was made available to customers immediately.

Anyway the point is I always consider the source and possible motives for making the statements. Not that I would automatically think they are not true, just that I would weigh them in light of the circumstances before accepting them as 100% true without embellishment.

BTW Bondurant as I understand is no longer a SPF dealer. Why not? Do you know? I don't. Just curious.

[BANDIT 1]

I never said one Cobra was better than another. Any Cobra that is made by any company with a 485 - 500 horsepower 4 speed 427 S.O. engine in it is going to run around the 12.0 - 13.0 second 1/4 mile times (best passes).

Mr Mike:" Who are you to say that every ERA cobra is a 12 second car?? I think that that is an ignorant comment."

I must be ignorant, because I have seen several drag races with ERA, Superformance, Midstates, CSX4000, etc... 427 S.O. 500 horsepower engined Cobra's running in the mid to low 12 seconds in the 1/4 mile with street tires. ALL of the cars with the 427 S.O. engine ran close to the same times.

It only makes sense that a ERA, Superformance, Midstates, CSX4000, etc... Cobra with a 600 horsepower engine (427/460/408 "stroker", etc...) would be running in the high 11's (best passes).

By everyone's own admission, most ERA Cobra's stand true to the 4 speed 427 S.O. engine putting out around 485 - 500 horsepower. I have simply said there are alot of Superformance Cobra's running 514+ c.i. engines with over 600 horsepower.

Is the 427 S.O. engine not the "original" style Cobra engine?

Is the 514 c.i. Ford Crate engine not a "modern" racing engine?

What's the big deal?

[TerrysSPF]

This is getting better than the "Liberal / Conservative" thread!
Well guys, I've got to respong to some of these past few posts......just because I feel I have to.......and it COULD get ugly -

First off (Buzz&Real1 both), I simply put up a couple of quotes by a couple of people known to most in the Cobra world, to make our friend Ray feel good about his decision. That was all it was supposed to be. Until now.......
Do either of you really feel that Superformance went out looking for both of these guys with an open check book hoping that they would sponser their car? I highly doubt it. In fact, Olthoff has said that he compared a number of Cobra replica companies before deciding on a Superformance car. Why did he decide on SPF? I don't know. Who were the other companies? You would have to ask him. Finest replica of the finest road car ever? Well, "finest replica" is HIS opinion, not mine. Finest road car? I gotta agree with you on that one; it wouldn't be the finest road car "ever".........not by todays standards.
Bondurant didn't say "Shelby should have built a Superformance with a 351 engine." He said that he should have built "a coil spring 427 chassis with a 351 engine". Saying that Shelby should have built a 351 car over the 427 car.....again, HIS opinion (and he IS a racer), not mine. Perhaps the badges would only say 351 instead of 427 on the side today.....who knows?? Hey, maybe they would have won even MORE races - who knows??? No, I don't think he meant to say Shelby should have built the car in fiberglass (you read waaaay to much into that), I believe he was referring to the weight / balance of the car with a 351. I'll say this though, todays Cobra's with a nice 351 stroker would run circles around the old 427 cars. Also, lets not forget who Shelby went to to build his car BEFORE going to Ford (now I'm REALLY going to pi$$ some people off!) Just think of what these cars could have done with a L-88 427 or, the all alum. ZL-1!!!! Now THAT car would still be fast TODAY!
When both these guys say that they believe Superformance is "the best replica", who knows what factors they are using to determine this? Real1, you asked yourself, "what does best mean?". Maybe (like me) they think it is the "best BUY" in the replica business. I looked at just about all the companies out there, and TO ME, SPF was the "best buy". Do I think they look exactly like the original? No.....but close enough for me. I would have picked an ERA if that was my main concern (and to some it is, and I understand that). ERA is a GREAT car (by the way.....I never knocked them in ANY of my previous post, and didn't even MENTION them in my last post Buzz! Hell, I almost bought one!), and I might have decided differently on what company I wanted if the prices were closer. An ERA built the way I wanted it would have been 12-15K more than an SPF. To me, it wasn't worth that much of a difference.......to some it is and I can understand that. The wait was much longer for an ERA also..........again, some don't care about that (especially those who live in a better climate and aren't trying to time the arrival with spring!).
Buzz, if you don't know why Shelby's name ended up on the FWD Charger ($$$$$$$$$$), then............oh well.
Olthoff and Bondurant's names aren't on the SPF's shipping from the factory. Do they make money on cars? Sure.......the one's the sell. Why is Bondurant getting out of the replica business? I don't know. Didn't know he was, but maybe it's something as simple as retirement time. Or, maybe he's going over to CSX Evan! ..........but I doubt it.
Evan: as for "TerrysSPF" "blindly believing" what these guys are saying - just because it's an SPF.......well, let's talk about "blindly believing in something, shall we.............? -I've been reading a lot, if not MOST, of your replys to different threads these past 8 weeks or so. Why don't you just come out and say that anyone that DOES'T HAVE a CSX car, is below the belly of a Cobra, and has NO RIGHT to even call their car a "Cobra"!! Just because some of us (actually MOST of us) don't want to (or CAN'T) drop well into 6 figures on a replica (yes, I said REPLICA!), doesn't mean we should crawl back to our trailor parks and give up this hobby / passion for these cars we all love. Say whatever you have to say to make yourself feel better (or "look better") for dropping that kind of dough on a REPLICA, but try and do it with some class.

To me, there are basically 2 different groups of people who get into these cars (there are other reasons too, but for the most part....). 1. People who want a Cobra that best resembles the original and make it look and feel as much like the cars of the 60's as possible. 2. Those who want a Cobra for performance (after all, the Cobra WAS built for performance), and they want to take advantage of modern technology and get as much of it (performance) out of their cars as they can. Some choose SB strokers and others go with BB's and try squeezing as much HP out as possible! -Nothing wrong with going either way! I respect the guys that have the "original looking" cars.......if I could afford 2, I would have one set up like that also! My father is a "orig nut"! He had a 64 GTO that took him 6 years to restore because he went all over the country looking for, and getting, orig. parts! If it were me, I would have slapped a 600HP BB in it, painted it a non-orig. color, and taken it to a dragstrip!
CSX are GREAT cars - no question. ....and probably the best "investment" car out there.........especially after C.S. croaks. But I would be afraid to drive one!.........and THAT'S what I wanted a Cobra for - to DRIVE! If I won the lotto, I'd have one in the garage (or a Kirkham). But it would be parked next to an SPF.....that I would use as my daily driver / track car.

......Perhaps I shouldn't have come online to check out the forum on a Friday night after being out with friends, but I've always been the kind of person to say what I mean, and mean what I say. I was just trying to congradulate Ray on his new purchase and do so by showing that he is in "good company" in owning an SPF. Some like to make montains out of molehills and nit-pick about this or that..........come on! We all want to feel good about our cars and the decisions we've made. So, Ray............feel good about yours........and have FUN!!!!