Insurance issue/Cobra charter group. Your vote is NEEDED!! Input very important!

[klayfish]

Turk or Computerworks, can you please make this a sticky, or put it somewhere where everyone can see it.

I I'm computer challenged and couldn't figure out how to make a poll. Can someone PLEASE make the name poll I describe below and attatch it to this thread!! Thank you. t

We are moving forward with our plans to create a chartered Cobra owners group, as has been discussed thoroughly on the previous threads. In case anyone missed them, here are those threads.
http://www.clubcobra.com/showthread....threadid=38227
http://www.clubcobra.com/showthread....threadid=38295

We need your help, and your vote is EXTREMELY important, since the group will be run and shaped by everyone.

First, the very basic concept of chosing the name. There are two suggestions. I am trying to make a poll, but I'm not good with computers, so if I fail, can someone help me? The choices are:
1. CBCA- Custom Built Cars Association
2. ASR- Association of Street Replicas

Next order of business is setting our agenda. I will post what I have, and hopefully my partner in crime will correct me if I miss something.
1. Create a basic safety checklist for all of our cars. Again, nothing extreme, just safety basics.
2. Encourage driver education and common sense driving on the street. This can be accomplished by many means, such as driving schools, autocross, and just plain smart street driving. This does not equate to no fun, just the opposite. Lots of fun!
3. Help the industry (resale, "credibility", etc...) by having an established, recognized organization with a known standard
4. Help ensure insurance is available for everyone, by showing that our vehicles are well built and we are safe drivers, and therefore a good risk.
5. Have one strong voice for positive change and input on the enthusiast hobby
6. SAVE LIVES! This will be done through all of the points above.

If I am missing something, let me know. But we want to keep it easy and simple, K.I.S.S.

This organization must be done by US, run by US and by a voice for US. No outside influences, such as manufacturers or insurance companies. We want to make our relationship with them very positive, but we need to govern ourselves.

What we want now, besides your vote on the name is input on the safety list. I am not a builder, so I am out. But those who have built and can contribute, please do. Again, as we have said before, we are not asking people to put in airbags or ABS. Nor do we expect to limit horsepower or take away your fun. Just a simple checklist of basic safety items to ensure our builds are quality and we are as safe as we can reasonably be in our cars.

Thanks so much for your help, and we will move forward with this. One last thought...We will need to stay in this for the long haul. It will not happen overnight. But it WILL HAPPEN!!!!

Steve

[computerworks]

This thread will remain a "sticky" in All Cobra Talk for the period of time necessary to collect the necessary input.

This thread will be moderated and edited to keep it on topic.
The previous threads linked above can still be used for the tangent topics.

Thanks for cooperating.

Ron
Club Cobra Moderator.

[Chaplin]

Some thoughts on the safety checklist.
First, is this going to a list of items to determine the basic strucutral integrity/ build quality of our cars or are we assuming that all the cars are basically structurally sound and we are looking for things beyond that like seat belts, fire extinguishers, etc.

The reason I ask is this- if the purpose is to determine the structural integrity/ build quality of the vehicles because of concern over "home builds" (which is a legitimate concern- not everyone's skills are the same), what about all those cobras that are sold as turnkeys or turnkey minuses? Will they be exempt from the safety checklist? For example, if I can establish that ERA built my car to a roller or a turnkey minus am I exempt? Are all SPFs exempt? What if you had a professionally recognized builder assemble your car- is that car exempt?

And a related issue, who would people take their cars to get a certification that their cars are "safe" for purposes of this organization?

Just some points for discussion to get this moving . . .

[Roscoe]

I don't care for either name...how about something like

Component Car Association
Component Car Builders Association
Component Car Owners Association

Chaplin: A car is a car and all should be eligible. I don't believe the inspection thing is a mandatory requirement, only a plus if you have it done. Am I wrong on this?

Roscoe

[turnpike boy]

My vote goes to ASR; consistent with what's represented, no red-flag words (i.e., "custom built") for Ins. Co. to choke on. Those NSRA standards ref'ed in other threads should also be used as much as possible - already a known commodity. Obviously we will have specific needs that will bump some of theirs and be supplanted with ours. Nice work, KF...this is appropriate and timely.

[Chaplin]

Roscoe-
I absolutely agree all should be eligible, but I am just trying to understand how the safety checklist would work and what it would entail.

[BLACKJACK]

IV'E COPIED MY RESPONSE ON THE OTHER THREAD BELOW - - - - -



IT'S A MISTAKE TRYING TO PLAY "HIDE THE WEENIE" WITH INSURANCE PROFESSIONALS. THEY'RE SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO.

THEY THINK OUR CARS ARE "UNSAFE". WE WANT TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE "SAFE". THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE WORD "SAFE".

HOW about : "CUSTOM VEHICLE SAFETY ASSOCIATION". THE NAME WILL TELL JUST WHAT WE ARE AND WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO. WE COULD CALL THE INSPECTION PROTOCOL THE "CUSTOM VEHICLE CERTIFICATION PROGRAM".

OUR IMMEDIATE CONCERN IS COBRAS - - AND IT SHOULD BE. OTHER VEHICLES DO NOT SEEM TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH INSURANCE. LET'S NOT CONFUSE THE ISSUE BY TRYING TO INCORPORATE OTHER CUSTOM BUILT VEHICLES, STREET RODS, ETC. AT LEAST NOT UNTIL WE HAVE OUR OWN PROBLEMS RESOLVED.

CUTE, DECEPTIVE WORDING IS TRANSPARENT TO THESE FOLKS. LET'S PUT OUR CARDS (AND ONLY OUR CARDS) ON THE TABLE AND DEAL WITH THESE GUYS STRAIGHT UP. ANYTHING ELSE WILL CONFUSE THE ISSUE. REMEMBER, RIGHT NOW WE NEED THEM MORE THAN THEY NEED US. WE NEED TO DO A DAMN GOOD JOB OF PACKAGING AND MARKETING BOTH.

AND BY THE WAY - - THIS IS A DAMN IMPORTANT THREAD AND IT'S BEING HI-JACKED BY A BUNCH OF PERSONAL BULL ****. HOW ABOUT TAKE THE ADOLESCENT CRAP TO ANOTHER THREAD UNTIL THE GUYS WHO CARE ABOUT THIS ISSUE CAN GET IT SOLVED.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[klayfish]

I'm highjacking this list straight from a post DV made. Now remember, this is the list for the NSRA, so it is not the list we are proposing for Cobras, but something similar.
1. HORN: Electric only.
2. SPEED INDICATOR: Speedometer or calibrated tachometer at 55 mph
3. REAR VIEW MIRROR: One inside or outside on driver's side of vehicle.
4. GLASS: Must be safety plate.
5. LIGHTING: Hi-beam; low-beam; tail; brake; license.
6. WINDSHIELD WIPER: Electric or vacuum operated.
7. AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION LOCKOUT: Neutral and/or park start only.
8. TIRES: Minimum 3/32 tread acceptable. Must meet D.O.T. specifications .
9. STEERING: No excessive "play" (2" radius max.) or binding; system must be safely mounted.
10. THROTTLE LINKAGE: Must not travel past center, return spring required.
11. FUEL SYSTEM: CHECK VENT ON TRUNK AND INTERIOR MOUNTED TANKS; no clear, plastic lines allowed. No leaks.
12. EXHAUST SYSTEM: NO LEAKS. Must pass rear edge of front door and exit exhaust away from vehicle.
13. SELF-ALIGNING ROD END BEARINGS: Check for fractures, insert sloppiness or binding.
14. SHOCK ABSORBERS: One per wheel, no leaks, 2" travel in each direction.
15. BRAKES: Four-wheel brakes, no leaks, check brake pedal travel, no copper tubing, check length of flexible lines.
16. SCRUB LINE: No steering, suspension or chassis components should be below this line.

RECOMMENDED EQUIPMENT: May be reason for failure.

17. WINDSHIELD: Should be AS-1.
18. SHIFT PATTERN: Shift pattern should be visible except on three speed standard column shift.
19. FUEL LINES: Should be safely mounted and routed.
20. PARKING BRAKE: Should be activated independent of vehicle's primary system. LINE-LOCK is not recommended.
21. SELF-ALIGNING ROD END BEARINGS: Ball should have 1/8 inch spacer on each side of the ball if there is any misalignment. Rod ends should not have more than 10° misalignment. ROD ENDS and 4 BAR-PARALLEL RADIUS ROD SYSTEM rubber bushed ends should have a safety washer at least the same outside diameter as the housing or larger.
22. BRAKE LINES: Should be safely mounted and routed.
23. CHASSIS FASTENERS: Self-locking nuts, lock-washers, safety wire, or cotter pins.

We can add, delete or alter this stuff, but the idea is basic stuff. Even though many cars are turn key minus, it doesn't hurt to have the structural stuff checked. It is not at all saying they don't build their cars well. It just doesn't hurt to have it looked at.
DV, help with this, please!! I'm out of my league on tech stuff.

As for who does it, we'll have to set a specific criteria. But the general idea is Cobra builders and/or ASE master techinicians if a Cobra builder is not local.

And the name. Well, we've had a few suggestions. One of them on the FFCobra site. I forget the full name, but the initials are C.B.R.A. Get it? I like it, but eventually (and I mean down the road), we had planned to include all replicars, not just Cobras. Our focus, as Blackjack pointed out, right now is Cobras. The insurance problem is unique to us, and we need to address it ourselves.

Remember, we're trying to keep this simple to start. If it grows and gets huge, we can make changes and add new things.

Steve

[BLACKJACK]

STEVE - --

YOU'RE THE INSURANCE PROFESSIONAL.

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE THE "MINIMUM" LIST SHOULD BE TO SATISFY THE INSURANCE COMPANIES ???? AFTER ALL - THEY'RE THE PRIMARY REASON WHY WE ARE DOING ALL THIS. MEETING THE UNDERWRITING CHALLENGE IS MORE OF A "PAPER DRILL" THAN ONE OF MECHANICAL APPTITUDE.

ONCE WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THE "MINIMUM" REQUIREMENTS FOR THEM WE CAN AGONIZE AND BEAT EACH OTHER UP OVER THE ADDITIONS THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO INCORPORATE. (OR NOT INCORPORATE).

UNTIL WE SATISFY THE NEEDS OF THE INSURANCE COMPANY WE ARE JUST JERKING OURSELVES AROUND.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[excelguru]

This idea is fantastic and it's time has come. Any name is fine with me so long as it doesn't specifically exclude other types of cars (but I agree with BLACKJACK, Cobras should be our main focus - we're the ones who take all the crap).

The NSRA checklist above looks great to me. I may have to change a few small things on my own car to comply (line-lock for example), but that's a change I'm willing to make if it means better safety and less hassles with the insurance companies.

You have my vote. Let me know how I can help.

Keith

[klayfish]

Blackjack,
Excellent point. As in my original post on this thread, our goals will go well beyond the insurance problem alone, that is why we're coming up with a solid list like the NSRA has. Because we want to make sure we are as safe as can be, regardless of insurance. However, you are correct in that the immediate crisis facing us is insurance.

Before I go into this, you must remember that all underwriters aren't car people. Even if they are, usually they into the muscle cars, classics, etc... They know very little about the "replica" "kit" whatever you call it business. They know about street rods, but some don't realize how similar they are to us. I'll discuss that below.

Insurance underwriters think "kit" car and you can imagine what type of image comes up in their minds. I truly don't understand why it is any different than with a '32 Ford built from the ground up, but it is. Those cars have as much in common with an original '32 Ford as my FFR does with a '60's vintage original Cobra. Truthfully (and this is right from the heart, no insurance talk), I think they look at street rods as an established, known item. They have experience with street rod writing. Street rods have been established for a long time, by groups like the NSRA. So when they see a street rod, they are comortable with them. They have proven to be well built and a low risk, despite the big block motors and steam roller tires. The underwriters just don't know what a Cobra is or how it is built. Remember, and I don't think I ever discussed this before, the number of street rods vs. the number of Cobras is vastly different. Underwriters have very little experience with Cobras, as opposed to a wealth of experience with the street rod. The ratio is probably 25/1 if not 50/1. You can call it ignorance, but ask yourself how many people outside of our little Cobra world really understand these cars? Probably not many.

So, in a long winded answer to your question, I think we need to show them that our cars are generally well assembled. Simple things such as the steering wheel won't fall off in our hands, the brakes work when we hit the pedal, the gas won't leak out all over the road, a wheel won't fall off, etc... Those are the basic goals we are trying to establish in our safety check, not something crazy like ABS or airbags. I even think the NSRA list of 23 is pretty basic.

The physical inspection is only one part of the equasion, albeit a very important one. The other is driving. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I'm not pushing for a lack of fun and a total police state. However, I'd bet established groups such as the NSRA or NCRS frown strongly on driving like an idiot on the street and members encourage each other to drive smart. It's no different than many of the cruise nights I go to. We all go, have a good time, and show off our cars. On the way out, sure we blip our throttles some and give a big grin. But if someone smokes the tires or acts like a jackass, they are asked to leave and not return. That's because if they allow that, the parking lot owner will tell them not to come back. Is that ruining anyones' fun? I don't think so. Same happens in autox. If you act stupid, you're asked to leave. But we have tons of fun. It's just common sense. I want our group to encourage this, and encourage driving schools, or other things to make us better risks, and be able to live to see tomorrow.

Please keep the input and votes coming. It seems we have support for this, and it can only help us. Not hurt. We're already hurting enough.

Steve

[Tom Wells]

Hey Steve,

Maybe this has been covered so forgive the simplistic approach:

Could we simply adopt the NSRA inspection list?

Could we simply go get an NSRA inspection?

Seems to me we could save a lotta time and use the established "comfort factor" of the NSRA inspection, as you mention, with the underwriters.

From there, we could add in a minimum driving school experience level. The SCCA has a list of approved schools and minimum course levels we could consider - although we may need a bit less than the SCCA requires for a novice permit.

Tom

[Go Hard or Go Home]

I think in one of the other threads it was said that we can't be with the NSRA.

CBRA - Custom Built Roadster Association

[Roscoe]

CBRA - Custom Built Roadster Association

What about the Daytona Coupes?

Roscoe

[mr bruce]

To us old timers ,Roadster means 32 Ford with no roof.www.roadsters.com Not cobras. ALL cars without a roof are "roadsters",ie:Vettes ,Vipers BMWs, etc. not just Cobras. Then what about Daytona Coupes? They don't count?

[turnpike boy]

O.K., NSRA is recognized by Ins. Co., right klayfish? Are we so elitist that any association with street rods causes you people to go into apoplexy? For chrissakes, the REAL objective is to get and KEEP insurance coverage, isn't it? Who give s sh!t whether or not we run with the Willys crowd? If this would give rest to the vampires, it's just plain asinine to reject it out of hand. Don't worry about the Coupes or the roadsters - they're all put together the same way a street rod is...BY HAND.

[TampaRMC]

To Quote the "Inspections" page of the Street Rods Home web page...

"As the name so realistically defines them, street rods are just what you would expect...modified automobiles driven on the streets and highways."

Are we not modifying our "Mustangs" and other cars. by improving their frames and body styling to seek our objective?

While we are not bolting cobra bodies onto existing Jaguars,
I agree with getting a force together to join NSRA, they have almost 25 years on us and we need to get accepted (insurance wise, sooner).

Is this an Elitist problem Us .vs. NSRA? I be they think of their creations exactly like we do.

Either way I support the idea of getting organized.

Rich

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Klay;

You asked for a vote on the name and info regarding safety...I offer my thoughts here.... The name,I really do not care,any name you have listed is fine with me....

Safety issues; We should have a specific checklist with specific area,i.e.;front suspension---steering components--rear suspension..Then to driveline---engine mounting--trans mounting--driveshaft....Then something on the order of body mounting or something along those lines....Then possibly lights--headlights-turn indicators-brake lights,then seat belts and seats......etc...etc...front to back,bottom to top....

I think the NSRA checklist has some very good points,but has some very general points also....Also,it may be possible to have dealerships or certified shops do the inspection (for a fee of course) if the owner of the car brought the checklist or required papers in to them and the shop filled them out after the inspection and they were notorized or something along those lines....

Just some thoughts and ideas on the matter....If you would like,I could make-up a checklist similar to the NSRA list to post for all to see and additions or deletions could be made as needed as well as suggestions on just how far or how detailed we would want to go with the inspection....

Another question????Would this be limited to Cobras (replica or real) or to any type of car,homebuilt,turnkey- minus,turnkey, hot rod,you get the picture....We would either have to set a criteria to meet or be open to any auto wanting to be inspected???????

Just food for thought and trying to be helpful..

David

[klayfish]

My head is spinning trying to keep up. Wow, I'm glad we're getting such a response to this. At least we have attention and I think we can get this done.

Turnpike Boy..apoplexy? Where the hell is my dictionary? Seriously, it's hard to describe. It's not elitist. But they (the street rods/NSRA) have already established their identity and their group. They have shown they are well built and a good insurance risk. The point I'm trying to make is that we need to do the same for ourselves. I don't think just trying to jump in with the NSRA will do it. Besides, if we do most of the legwork to set up the group, and all you have to do is help us make the guidelines (we could use the NSRA as a format, but need to make our own rules for us), get the car inspected and put your sticker on the car, wouldn't that be pretty easy?

As I've said a few times in other posts, I'm sure that many of our inspectors will also be NSRA inspectors (I'm sure DV inspects for the NSRA), so there will be some overlap with the group. Hopefully we'll have an alliance. But we need to establish our own group. Yes, we have a lot in common, such as being built from the ground up, but they are seen as very different cars. I think the owners tend to be somewhat different.

As for other cars being included in our group, the intention is to have it open for all "handbuilt" "custom" or whatever cars, but I think at least initially, we really need to focus on the Cobras (including Daytonas), as we are the ones singularly having the insurance and reputation problem. I think most traditional "street rods" such as the '32 Ford will go to the NSRA, so I'm not too concerned about competition or anything like that.

I'm not commenting too much on the technical end of the safety items too much because I'm not a mechanic. I'll leave that to all of you, and get help from DV. My personal thought is that we should create a relatively general list for now. Comprehensive enough to make sure we are safe on the roads. Brakes, steering, suspension, fuel lines, etc... As far as insurance is concerned, they just want to know the wheels won't fall off, the steering wheel won't come off in our hands, etc... But our list should be for more than just insurance. It should help make sure that our cars are safe so that everyone can live long enough to attend the Fling and my Cobra Revolution on June 7th!! Sorry, I couldn't resist the plugs!

Steve

PS, I'm sorry if I don't make full sense in my posts, but I'm going as fast as I can, so I may miss something or write incomplete thoughts. Just kick me if I do.

[GeorgiaSnake]

Steve thanks for your insightful input. I like the basic safety list being floated about and see no reason to reinvent the wheel, if it has worked for the street rodders it should work for us.

Have you discussed any of these issues with other people in the insurance industry? What are they really looking for? I would guess they want an additional profit center. What are the numbers required for a good risk, 1,000 polices - 10,000? How do we vote on this issue?

Like I said before count me in and let me know if I can do anything from this end.

Randy