Enough Dead Cobra Owners! Enough Wrecked Cars!

[Dan Semko]

Bill,
I understand your passion but you're missing the point. If you want quality medicine, it is and will be your responsibility to seek appropriate care, thanks to insurance companies. I've been in practice in this small town for 23 years and for 23 years I've heard the same frickin lecture from our accountants who we pay $125 per hr. to tell us that we should a) see twice as many patients per day to increase our incomes or b) get the hell out of Dodge and move to a larger city where our incomes will double over night. My wife and I BOTH practice at the same location at the same time because it's the way WE want to practice medicine. If a patient has a concern they will be addressed and they'll always be treated like family. Our income COMBINED is less than a single practitioner makes per year. The difference is I love my job and really still care for the well being of my patients. I still "barter" or exchange services with patients that are under insured or uninsured. You enjoy statistics, how about this one. The greatest increase in patients that have NO insurance last year was in the group making $87k or greater per annum.
Something is not right when people that make that kind of income cannot get adequate health insurance.
Another thing, we don't accept Medicare, Medicaid or ANY insurance policies. We will help patients submit to their insurance company but our fees are the same regardless of patient coverage and income, so if you're a millionaire or a pauper, the fee will always be the same. The sliding scale that most hospitals and some offices utilize gravels my butt and should be an anti-trust violation!

[mrmustang]

Hey Dan,

Having plenty of friends in the medical field, yes, I did not miss your point, as I hear the same thing from them every week. Instead, I was giving you an alternate view based on conversations with those same medical field proffesionals. A good majority of the doctors under 40 got in to the field for the wrong reasons....Just to make the big bucks, these are the folks who are crying the blues much harder these days than those folks like your wife and yourself who got in to the field to help people first, then make an honest decent living (yes, much harder these days for you both)................


Bill S.

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by KobraKarl


Brett,

Just curious, what percentage of your gross would you say is required to service your liability insurance ..

Karl

about 10%. Maybe a little more. Never been sued, but I do stick 4 inch needles up people's spines. However, the real cost of limiting liability is in the redundant staff we must hire, and unneccessary tests we must order to look for "red herrings", which never turn anything up, but, if a case were to go to court would (since everybody else must do the same thing) be deemed the "standard of care".

I do accept Medicare/Medicaid, and the old people are so fat and out of shape that we are constantly using employee time to make sure they get off our property safely, and the Medicaid patients are constantly stealing our toilet paper, and just about anything else that we don't have our eye on. No different than any other business owner, unfortunately. Our employee costs go up 5%each year, our malpractice goes up each year, and our reimbursement goes down 5-10% each year. (We let insurance dictate our livelihood- a fatal miscalculation). The rich privately insured folks are the ones who always want to walk their copays, and want to monopolize your time to stroke their ego and show off their pseudo-medical knowledge. They cut and paste WebMD.com into their short term memory! It's really interesting to watch. I have learned more from my patients (what NOT to do) than I ever learned in medical school!
Like somebody on here says, "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible warning"! Cracks me up....
Casaleenie probably is so wise from hearing the same stories from behind the bar for all those years, right?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Brett & Dan;

You both make valid points and I agree to a lot of them. The insurance industry is not perfect by any stretch,but by the same token neither or a lot of doctors and a lot of personal injury attorneys.....Believeme, I deal with doctors of all types and personal injury attorneys on a daily basis,I know what's going on and how the game is played...Then you throwin "goverment regulations" for good measure to make sure everything stays screwed up.....

We can all ***** and moan about the state of things today and I can quote examples of bad doctors and lawyers and you'll can quote examples of bad insurance companys and HMOs till the cows come home and we will accomplish nothing but maybe raising our blood pressure or even blowing off a little steam.

Back to some of the original questions brought about on this thread and others.... I see people posting about companys not insuring Cobras and raising the rates by 2-3-4-times for existing policys. All I was trying to do is explain what is happening and why it is happening from an insurance standpoint,that is all....

For example; the average Cobra that is insured for "Agreed on Value" is probably insured for 50k, the average policy limits for that same car are probably 100-300 limits with some UM & DI....The average premium from what I see posted is probably around $750.00 a year..... Now lets take one accident were a Cobra is totaled and there are fatalities.... There have been a few of these latlely. Can not remember who theyare exactly but not that long ago there was a double fatality and the driver was a CC member. Totaling the car brings a payout of 50k,agreed on value,the passenger fatality will take the 100k BI limit ,the driver/owner will get Med Pay for the limit,probably somewhere around 25k for this type of policy and any DI payments,probably around another 25k for this type policy. So now the insurance company is paying out a total of 200k on this accident assuming it is a one vehicle accident with no other vechicles or property damaged and no other injuries to other people....Paying out 200k this company would have to have 267 Cobras insured for this amount for a year and not have another claim the rest of the year just to brake even!!!!!! Not a very good deal..... Now you know why companys are not insuring Cobras anymore and the ones that still are are raising their rates.....The money taken in just does not keep up with the money paid out and the Cobra is just not a good risk..

It's is just not cost effective for an insurance company to insure these high powered sports cars and that's why they are getting harder and more expensive to insure....

My fault,your fault,nobody's fault,an accident is an accident, people get hurt and sometimes killed and the insurance company always pays,end of story....

PS; I have enjoyed this discussion and learned a few things along the way,I just hope I may have explained some things to others along the way also...

Respectfully;

David

[Edley Rondinone]

But dont all the other cars an insurance carrier insures, with no claims, make up for a few Cobras? If all the cars insured by a carrier WERE Cobras, I could see the point...

[Bill Wells]

edley, every time you go to a car show and see 800 cars and only 3-10 of them are cobra replicas, you go by and thank every one of those 'other' car folks. all those brass era cars, old collectable non muscle cars, 30's thru 50's type cars that see maybe 500 miles a year or less and pay insurance and NEVER have a claim are paying for OUR cobra replica insurance. walk up and kiss every one of those other owners. they make up the difference that david gagnard refers to.

one major insurer told me that less than 10% of his entire portfolio are cobras , yet they accounted for 40% of his claims. HELLO..talk to those other insured non cobra car owners and say THANKS>

another specialty car insurance carrier told me they had a near half million dollar payout on ONE accident. hello !! hello !! a car hits a house, car/house catch on fire, a fatality..max insurance payout on all policy portions and liabilty. now, how many cobras do they want to insure, and at what price ? NONE< they stopped writing policies on new ones and raised the rates and lowered liability and added a copay deductible they never had before to cobra owners grandfathered from previous coverage. hello...who is next is the question. ....hello....bill

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Thank you Bill Wells,thank you Bill Wells,thank you Bill wells,now it's two against the world,not just one (me).

Edley;

You have a point,but unfortunately 99% of the Cobra insurers out there are "specialty insurance companys",meaning they insure street rods/classics/antiques/some kit cars/replicas. When they look at the cars they insure and the claims made it is clear as water the Cobra is a bad deal hands down,that's why they are shying from them....

A buddy of mine has five super nice street rods between himself/his wife/ his son,they are all insured with the same company my Mustang is insured with and all have agreed on value policys as I do, all five cars are valued between 30k and 45k. I'll bet five bucks all five do not get the mileage in one year that my Mustang sees and they have never been within a mile of a drag strip. You talk about good risks,that's why they get brakes on their premiums...

Coming back to Bill's point about car shows,last month at the Pensecola Regional Mustang and All ford car show,there were approx. 200 cars there,I saw one original small block Cobra, CSX 2397 I think and three relpicas,so we had four out of 200 there,not a big percentage.....

I am sorry that things are turning out the way they are for Cobra owners,but with the high profile accidents with fatalities and high (six figure payouts) payouts,this was/is enevitable..... We can try and make a difference like NSRA has done,but as I have said it will be a slow go,but worth it I think..

David

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by DAVID GAGNARD


Brett & Dan;

You both make valid points and I agree to a lot of them. The insurance industry is not perfect by any stretch,but by the same token neither or a lot of doctors and a lot of personal injury attorneys.....Believeme, I deal with doctors of all types and personal injury attorneys on a daily basis,I know what's going on and how the game is played...Then you throwin "goverment regulations" for good measure to make sure everything stays screwed up.....

We can all ***** and moan about the state of things today and I can quote examples of bad doctors and lawyers and you'll can quote examples of bad insurance companys and HMOs till the cows come home and we will accomplish nothing but maybe raising our blood pressure or even blowing off a little steam.

Back to some of the original questions brought about on this thread and others.... I see people posting about companys not insuring Cobras and raising the rates by 2-3-4-times for existing policys. All I was trying to do is explain what is happening and why it is happening from an insurance standpoint,that is all....

For example; the average Cobra that is insured for "Agreed on Value" is probably insured for 50k, the average policy limits for that same car are probably 100-300 limits with some UM & DI....The average premium from what I see posted is probably around $750.00 a year..... Now lets take one accident were a Cobra is totaled and there are fatalities.... There have been a few of these latlely. Can not remember who theyare exactly but not that long ago there was a double fatality and the driver was a CC member. Totaling the car brings a payout of 50k,agreed on value,the passenger fatality will take the 100k BI limit ,the driver/owner will get Med Pay for the limit,probably somewhere around 25k for this type of policy and any DI payments,probably around another 25k for this type policy. So now the insurance company is paying out a total of 200k on this accident assuming it is a one vehicle accident with no other vechicles or property damaged and no other injuries to other people....Paying out 200k this company would have to have 267 Cobras insured for this amount for a year and not have another claim the rest of the year just to brake even!!!!!! Not a very good deal..... Now you know why companys are not insuring Cobras anymore and the ones that still are are raising their rates.....The money taken in just does not keep up with the money paid out and the Cobra is just not a good risk..

It's is just not cost effective for an insurance company to insure these high powered sports cars and that's why they are getting harder and more expensive to insure....

My fault,your fault,nobody's fault,an accident is an accident, people get hurt and sometimes killed and the insurance company always pays,end of story....

PS; I have enjoyed this discussion and learned a few things along the way,I just hope I may have explained some things to others along the way also...

Respectfully;

David

I concur. Thanks for the info. Let's have a group hug.

[meat]

A national 'group' would be a good thing, but many Cobra owners are apathetic once they get their cars done. They do a few shows, do a few burnouts, and sell their cars. Getting them involved enough to form a cohesive group would probably be virtually impossible.

By comparison, street rodders and hot rodders - for the most part - drive chromed-out automatics with show suspension, a/c and cup holders. They're also greying more than the Cobra replica owners are.

As kit car owners, we get grouped into the VW Dune-buggy crowd, and most companies do not really want to deal with a $50K+ dune buggy. You can argue with them 'til you're blue in the face, but they will always see a custom chassised fiberglass bodied high-horsepower '32 Ford Highboy replica as completely different than a custom chassised fiberblass bodied high-horsepower Cobra replica. Both cars could have been built by the same guy, to the same specs, but the Cobra will always be a kit car.

Can that be changed? By who? The apathetic group? Probably not going to happen. Getting support behind SB1911 and SB100 was a virtual impossibility; everyone thought a custom built 34 Ford was a 43 Ford - not a SPCN. I worked it for over two years. When it passed, SEMA was quick to jump in and say they 'did it for the enthusiasts,' although I specifically remember calling them and being told that the Cobra replica community was a 'minority.'

Insurance companies ... well, maybe an insurance company did pay out $1.5 million more than it took in in premiums. Sometimes that happens. But insurance companies take the money they get in and invest it in other things, it doesn't just sit in a pot waiting for payout. A more interesting number would be the amount of money the company made off of the premiums it took in.

Also, based on the numbers I've got, it looks like there's closer to 60,000 Cobra replicas out there. True, there have been a number of fatalities involved, and not all the Cobras out there have been completed...but the percentage of owners wrecking their cars is insignificant when compared to the number of 'regular' car owners out there wrecking their cars. The number of fatalities involved in 'regular' cars is significantly higher, more often involves drinking, drugs, or stupidity, and involves a much more radically diverse age group, since may citizens can get their licenses at 16, and continue driving (automatics) will into their 70s and later. Cobra owners, as a whole, generally fall into a pretty specific age group (since these cars are rarely primary vehicles, and require quite a bit of extra income to purchase in the first place), are more careful with their driving habits (street racers, burn-out FFR owners excluded), and don't drive their cars once they can't push the clutch in.

What does this mean? You'll never get a group together, and insurance companies post funny numbers.

I'd be interested in a group...but where and when does everyone get involved? Who manages the group? What are the benefits?

Your pal,
Meat.

[searanch]

Hey Meat,

...your post was the most intelligent on point post of the bunch - clear thinking smack right on the money

greatly appreciate your lack of a soapbox and the need to lecture the unwashed...



Searanch

admin
Gasholes Forum

[Excaliber]

From Mark H. sister's post on the original thread it leave no doubt it was a "race", and they had "raced" before. What was different this time was the Trans Am had NOS now.

Ernie

[SCOBRAC]

A Cobra union?

[CSX 4027]

Wow..A guy dies in a Cobra and the thread turns into a car insurance banter.
The fact of the matter(and I don't sell car insurance) is that no matter how many Cobra's there are out there, it is still a small specialty group that insurers usually lump together with other hot rods and the like. The reality is that they are a high risk group. Did you ever try to get rates on a new Viper or Corvette as a daily driver? The 5 or 7 hundred a year premium is not getting anyone rich and the claims are high and keep growing. Being a Cobra owner comes with certain unavoidable costs. This will always be one of them.
Good news....Life Insurance rates don't go up if you own a Cobra.
(that I do sell)

**Right before I used to get on the track with 4027, my wife used to ask me if I paid the premium? I responed Yes...
She said.. Good, Go Faster...!!

[Excaliber]

Steve,,,,,,,,,,LOL,,,,,,,pedal to the metal only after the premium is paid?

Ernie

[Jamo]

Meat--damn it, you're starting to let these guys think you know what the hell you're talking about.

[klayfish]

Oh man, I'm trying to keep up with this thread. Getting ready for vacation in a few days, so I'm trying to wrap up loose ends at work and home.

On the insurance issue, I think we have to remember to compare Cobras to other specialty autos, and not the everyday Accord/Camry policies. For instance, in my company, I admit I don't know the ratio of Cobras vs. 'Vettes insured, but I'm very confident it is on the order of 20-30:1, probably much higher. The number of Cobra claims, while probably not the same as the number of 'Vette claims, probably has a much higher ratio and a much higher severity. As stated many times, insurance companies are businesses, so if Cobras are an obvious loss for them, they'll avoid them.

I agree with Meat that many owners of Cobras, at least from what I've seen and heard, do tend to get apathetic. Some kits go unfinished, some get sold shortly after completion.

My feeling is...Can a Cobra "group" change all the problems discussed? I don't know for sure. But what have we got to lose? I think it's worth a try. If it doesn't work, will we be any worse off? Who will form, organize, lead, run the group? I don't know that either. That would be up to everyone who wants to participate. I'd volunteer however I can, but I'm far from an expert on these subjects. If a group is formed, I don't even know what the first step would be. I'd want to keep it as simple as possible.

Steve

[Edley Rondinone]

"Cobras-R-Us"

[Double Venom]

Long, long ago, with total inspirations of doing a good thing, our idea was forced to the way side mostly from a few members of the "Gasholes". They had their points and strived to tell us "we" didn't need any intervention. Insurance company's in multitudes quit insuring these cars. Even today in 2014 it can be hard to get insurance. Klayfish, you were right then, you are right now. Of course Mr. DDS Semko "we" feel and honor the family of the deceased, to indicate other wise is a dishonor upon itself.

My biggest concern at the time was the way guys and some builders put these cars together, that was all it was, period. NO regulations per us, strictly suggestions that you could follow or not!

This particular fatality "seems" to be strictly driver error. Not because a rubber gas line was not secured, not because the roll bar bolts were wrong, or the seat belts were torn loose from improper mounting, no...truly but sadly ---driver error.

Klayfish-Steve, I got personally reprimanded by many of a group that could not, or would not take a moment to understand what you so elegantly stated above. To me it was not worth the embitterment, the name calling, etc. We could have very easily got Ohio behind this with NOTHING more than official support. Since Columbus is the Insurance Capital of the world what better place to put an all volunteer safety program in place for our cars?

This latest victim and all the prior victim's of these special cars will never be forgotten!

May they NOT be forgotten, and always remembered.
DV

PS. By God MEAT, your post was, was, well damn it, it just was.

[mrmustang]

I miss Dan and yes, even Turk


Bill S

[Large Arbor]

While I share the desire of avoiding anyone getting hurt, I think the best is education, anything beyond that is intrusive. Since I am a new owner, I give my car the greatest respect and recognize it can get away from me in a second. I have been around muscle cars most of my life and recognize that any car with lots of horsepower has this potential. I will not race on the street. Being a new owner, I got nothing to prove. How did I get to this position? Reading and learning from the posts here and other sites. Education has made the difference in my case. This may be offensive to some, but if you want to save lives, don't drink and drive in any vehicle.

Large Arbor