Do we need another Cobra Kit Mfg?

[Chifo Jr]

I am doing some very preliminary investigation into the viability of manufacturing a high quality kit. One that is engineered properly and would represent quality workmanship. I would most likely base the car on the platform of the Butler. I am interested in hearing some input as well as some views on price points. Any and all comments are welcome.

[RallySnake]

Chifo,

Go for it man! Understand the dangers though. Fiberglass resin emits highly toxic fumes while being worked, that can cause lung cancer. When I talk to manufacturers about the risks of Cobra building, this is number one. You only need one employee out on disablity to destroy a profit margin. The use of proper breathing apparatus is critical.

There cannot be too many Cobras,
Paul

[RallySnake]

Pete,

THAT'S IT? You gave up already? Running a small business take's lots of drive, determination and guts. Where's the spirit?

Paul

[Excaliber]

Why the Butler? And as far as "manufacturers" go, sure seems like we have a ton of them all ready!

Ernie

[RallySnake]

You make a good point, Ernie. Why deal with the MG and Jag parts when there are so many other suspensions available? And why make a standard Cobra? How about a "fliptop" replica with the long nose, easy engine access and better aerodynamics?

As much as I like BMWs, I do not believe that strut suspension is appropriate for a Cobra. I believe in unequal A-Arms all around. Even the Honda Accord uses them in spite of the increased expense. Struts are for lower manufacturing costs. Miata's have great handling, I wonder if they have struts or unequal A-Arms?

While you're working on the aerodynamics, how 'bout a smooth bottom with air channels like modern racecars and the McLaren F1 supercar to combat that dreaded Cobra lift at speed?

Make it very light (under 2,000 pounds) and very strong, too with modern construction. Maybe a backbone frame with a monocoque center section?

Paul

[PSB]

Build a slabside - they (customers, that is) will come!

Pete

[bill32]

OK, you asked for opinions. There are already a number of kit manufacturers, some great, some not so great. But they have a track record and experience and have reached some level of financial stability. That was not easy.

The potential market for a kit is very limited, so to be successful you have to take market away from these existing builders. That is in addition to actually expending a lot of money in development and marketing. That market that you have to take from others has to be big enough for you to survive on. That will be a real challenge. There does not appear to be much chance of a new builder stimulating an increase in the size of the potential market unless he builds a good mousetrap at a considerably cheaper price, which seems unlikely for anyone.

You might have a lot better chance, at least to start, if you focused on some significant options or additions, to one or more of the existing kits.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[RACERAL]

NO

[auto10x]

Your post would seem to imply that there are no quality Cobras now. I would imagine that many of the manufacturers now in business started out much the same way, wanting to build a better/higher quality that those that were currently available. What you will probably end up with is a "new" replica that in your eyes is superior, but to the "general public" is just another attempt to copy the original.
Considering the time and money required to accomplish what you have in mind, GOOD LUCK.
auto10x
Bill

[STG]

Chifo Jr. did not imply that quality Cobras are not currently built. He simply stated that he is looking into building a high quality, properly engineered kit.

If you build off-shore, your fiberglass/lung cancer/workman's comp problems are minimized. Of course, you'll have to accept that you will be minimizing your legal exposure while maximising risk for your sub contractor's employees in some non-regulated third world country.

I wouldn't want to get into the Cobra market with CS ramping up production in South Africa.

RallyeSnake:

Struts may not be correct, but you can't argue with the handling of the BMW 3 series. (Wonder how the Backdraft drives - the optional suspension is from the M3.)

[Dan Stryffeler]

I have to wonder why so many manufacturers are adding other Models, (Cheetah, Daytona Coupes, Hi-boys, Willy's, etc.) to their Cobra lineups, if the market isn't starting to become a little over saturated.

On the other hand, at all the cruise nights/car shows that I go to, the replica Cobras represented are still a minority, and they still gather a lot of interest... so I don't think the market is tapped out.

- Dan

[CowtownCobra]

To the original question:

NO!

[RACERAL]

if you insist on makeing a new cobra... make it just like a ffr frame with a era suspension for the price of a ffr.... that ought to sell

[RallySnake]

Pete,

Are you getting anything from all this?

The more I think about it, the more I wish you, or someone else, would build a nice McLaren F1 Supercar replica. Getting someone to loan you their $1,000,000.00 car to splash the body would be the hard part. But man, would that sell!

I wonder if the McLaren lawyers would care, they don't make them anymore.

Then, I'd have a car to rally in on rainy days.

Paul

[STG]

Rallye Snake,

Something makes me think that McLaren would care about a splashed repo.

As for the roadster market not being saturated....

What Chifo Jr. has to ask is:

"Can most prospective buyersfind a replica that suits them?" If the answer is yes, then good luck.

Let's see. Now we can start at $11,900 plus a 5 liter Mustang for an FFR, a fully finished Backdraft roller for less than $26,000, to $100,000+ for a REALLY nice CSX or Kirkham. Want a Cobra racer? See JBL. We got cheap ones, expensive ones long wheelbase, fiberglass, aluminum, semi monocoque, original looking and kind of way stand off scale for starters.

Unless your Cobra is different or offers more value for the dollar (see Superformance vs. Backdraft), your chance of getting a piece of the pie is very slim.

The potential market for replicas, or any other car is limited. Let's say that next year, 20,000 replica Cobras will be purchased world-wide ( just a number to make my point). If you come to the market, you will have to coax some of those 20,000 away from all of those other manufacturers. That IS NOT EASY. Ask the major automobile manufacturers how much it costs to get a conquest sale.

A couple of years ago, Lexus invited me to a comparison drive event that cost them $2,000,000 per weekend. They put it on seven times accross the country. The invites were owners of competing automobiles. Lexus, like everybody else sells more cars at the expense of other maufacturers' sales.

Come up with something different - perhaps another model of car that has not been replicated.

[RallySnake]

Stan,

I have to disagree with you. Potential Cobra owners are not just a segment of the car market. They are also adventursome soles who may have narrowly missed death on that Harley or speed boat or experimental aircraft. Have you seen the price for the HD 100th Anniversary scooter? The Cobra is a toy that seems somewhat practical and is quite a bit more forgiving than a hang glider.

Another point. You may be right about the strut suspension being acceptable in a Cobra. After all, it was good enough for Colin Chapman to use front and rear. I guess I will become a believer when a Backdraft wins a Run and Gun or One Lap of America.

Paul

[STG]

Paul,

All I'm saying is that there is a certain number of adventurous souls who are interested in purchasing a Cobra at any given point in time. A new replica manufacturer does not automatically bring more potential Cobra buyers into the marketplace.

If the new replica is not different from what is already available, it must draw buyers from the existing group of adventurous souls. The new company will have to get those purchasers away from Superformance, ERA, Shelby, Backdraft etc. Whatever business the new firm gets will be at the expense of the other manufacturers.

If the new company does something truly new or different, like lowering the price point a la FFR, or making an exact clone like Kirkham, the potential exists to expand the pool of Cobra buyers. There are many people who couldn't afford a replica until FFR came along.
I couldn't imagine Lynn Park buying a replica before the Kirkham hit the market.

The bottom line is, you have to bring something new to the marketplace, or be better than your competitors to suceed as a new replica manufacturer. The question remains:

What can a new company do better/differently than Kirkham, ERA, Shelby, Superformance, Backdraft, FFR, Lonestar. Classic Roadsters, Shell Valley, JBL, Mid States, etc. etc. etc.

It certainly seems as though just about all the Cobra bases are pretty well covered.

[decooney]

Chifo,
I would say that if you could engineer and build an upper-end car along the same lines as the original Butler, you'd have to charge at least 50K+ for it even today to make it worth the time, money, and energy. If you look back at some of the original materials on Butlers, they were being sold for as much as $65K for turnkey cars back in the 1980s. You might be able to save and find the old tooling leftover from the defunct (G&S Motorsports - if I recall) company that tried to continue making the Butlers... etc. If you have a passion to build cars, that might be one way to justify it. But if your passion is to be in business and make money, there are probably better, more profitable ways to accomplish this vs. building another replica Cobra.

I agree with some of the others posts, if you were going to create, build, and replicate something..., then create or replicate something different, new, and exciting... Tell ya what, if you still want to create yet another new Cobra company, go drive a nice ERA and see if you still think its worth trying build a competetive car in this price range. If you could make improvements, and build something faster, better, and cheaper than an ERA, you might have something. Tough task if you ask me. Good Luck.

[StephenC]

If I had the knowledge and resources to build and offer a component vehicle for sale, it would not be a Cobra-style product. That market is pretty well covered. If you have researched and/or bought a Cobra replica lately, you know this is true.

I recently went to Dynamic MotorSports in Ross, Ohio to see my SPF roller. While I was there, I also had a chance to look at their new vehicle line called the Noble. I saw my son's (23 years old) reaction to it as well as several other members of the next generation of car buyers. While they liked the Cobras, it was the Noble that attracted and held their their attention. Cobras were cool, but the Noble was (according to my son), "AWESOME!!". It was obvious the other younger guys felt the same way. Put a Noble and a Cobra side by side and 90% of the guys 30 and under would take the Noble, especially if you could get the price about the same ( the Noble is priced about the same as a new Viper).

According to Ron and Dean at Dynamic, the Noble will have VERY limited (maybe less than 30 a year) availability here in the US due to restrictions on production in Great Britain. Why build Cobra kits and face all of the existing competition? Fill a gap in the existing market, see what the next generation will want, and you will have more business than you can handle as their earning power begins to increase.

Whether we like it or not, Cobras represent the past (that's why most of us love 'em) and cars like the Noble are the future. That's why so many Cobra replica dealers and kit car companies are adding "new" models to their product line.

Just a thought.

[REAL 1]

I'm not sure the market will be big enough to support the existing manufacturers as our generation fades. The next generation may not be as interested in the Cobra as we are.