Real world CSX4000 comparison

[Allan A]

Help me here as I am familiar with steel construction. You have stated that it takes the same amount of time to fab square or rectangular tubing vs. round tubing. It has been our experience that this is not the case due to the fit up of radius parts. Keeping the center lines is far more difficult, I would have to agree with the REAL 1 this time.

Allan

[Specialk]

Richard,

I believe the SPF chassis is much simpler to build. Square tubing chassis’ are easier to fabricate simply because the tubes do not need to be coped. It is also quicker and easier to weld square tubing because it is a straight line weld. Also, the SPF chassis is less complex and appears to have less parts welded onto it. Time is money!






Have no experience with the SPF cars, so I do not claim to know anything about performance, durability, quality, etc. I am simply stating my opinios based on my observations.

[Jamo]

Evan

"you're"; not "your".

[Great Asp]

Evan said

"SPF is utilzes more off the shelf components for economy and ease of build "

Superformance makes their own wheels and spinners, where do Shelby wheels come from? Superformance makes all of their own suspension components, engineered to the geometry on the car. CSX uses the "old" suspension so you boys can have "suspension swap days".

Superformance continues to build better and better cars, with upgrades always coming up. CSX cars (while "original"), keep getting built the same way.

Evan, you need to go to work at Shelby in the sales dept, quit hacking my beloved SPF!

Eric

[Allan A]

Eric,

I am glad CSX uses the SS knock offs, we already know how well the SPF knock off's work!

Allan

[gary osborne]

Geez, I was so good about staying far far away from CC for so long. Being gone was good for my soul. I left due to all the sophmoric debates and have now been drawn back due to the same. Only THIS time it is because SPF has been in the limelight and I just HAD to see what was going on.

As a SPF owner, I must admit that I am embarrassed by some of my bretherans' recent posts that have incited these near riots. Hey, I still believe they are good guys. They just exercised some poor judgement. Certainly something I have done on more than one ocassion and may be doing right now. For the most part, their posts were not all THAT bad but when a few characters on this site take aim and fire at some comment buried in the text --- all hell breaks loose. Of course, if the targeted comment was never made then the firing squad would have nothing to shoot at. It all comes down to knowing your audiance.

Do I think SPF is the best product out there for the money? Duh! I own one. That doesn't make me right. It just makes SPF the right car for me. I am sure that Evan thinks Shelby is best and Jamo thinks Kirkham is best etc. etc. It is truely unfortunate that some (very few I might add) SPF owners have decided to take their personal preferrences to the WWW and stick burrs under other folks' saddles with their choice of words.

Turk,

For the most part, SPF owners have conducted themselves in the same gentlemanly fashion that owners of other manufacturers have here. Maybe the reason SPF owners "seem" to be more vocal latley is nothing more than there are just more of them (for the most part --- and yes I know that FFR has a bunch out here too--- I am NOT trying to start another debate about who has built the most cars). That said, there are three times the number of SPF owners today than there was just 3 years ago. Hey, if I remember correctly Jamo (I love ya brother -- this is not meant to be a shot) has a "Kirkham is best" comment at the bottom of every post he makes --- and that is a LOT. But everyone KNOWS Jamo is a good guy, loves these cars (all of them) and most of the owners. His persona makes it OK.

The other thing that mystifies me is the obsession some seem to have with SCOF. What angers me are the two folks who have said that they visited SCOF and IMPLIED that something evil is discussed there. Want to know what we talk about? Hal tells his stories about his car, his dog, his wife and his kids. I tell jokes - mostly about myself because I have NOTHING of technical value to offer. We mostly talk about our cars and our adventures in them. We just had a lively discussion about where to buy better looking valve covers and we often kid each other about the size of our blocks. Do we talk about other manufacturers? Almost never and if we do it may last about three or four posts. If and when we do is it one sided? Of course it is. How often do you think the Muslim religion is defended in a Christian church or visa versa? You can be sure that an open public debate between Democrats and Republicans is far different than a political discussion in their respective reelection headquarters. For the most part, we don't care about the other manufacturers. No disrespect there --- we just talk about our cars, not others. That is why we restrict membership to SPF owners --- to keep the dialog focused and to avoid sophmoric debates. Its no fun to argue when no one takes the other side. It is pretty much like sitting around the bar, having a few cocktails and chatting with your buddies who happen to share a passion. So, to the two who seem to want to keep bringing SCOF up and suggesting otherwise, you are full of balogna and are showing your ignorance to all that really know the truth. Unfortunatley, only the SPF owners will KNOW what to believe.

Owning a "Real Shelby" or a replica of ANY brand is a rare pleasure shared by a few thousand people --- a pretty small and elite group by comparison to most other hobbies. There are a large number of owners on CC who always have something nice to say and are there to help when "one of their own" is in need. Then there are a few who seem to (repeatedly and consistently) feel the need to thump their chests, take a cheap shot, find a word to twist, play holier than thou and or whine when they get a taste of their own medicine. It takes two sides to make a debate and two to keep it going. No one is without sin when this type of thread occurs.

SPF owners:

Do you want people to think well of your cars? Then play nice, be humble, be helpful, and don't compete with the those who claim their's are better. ALL of the various cars will speak for themselves in both quality and value (both of which are subjective in nature). Your actions will ultimately cast a shadow upon Superformance and THAT is unfair to the company. Superformance has NEVER once said anything on this site, nor does it associate itself with SCOF. I can only SPECULATE that is because they choose NOT to get caught in the crossfire.

[Rich A]

AC Cars of Thames Ditton, England made the original cars and sent them to Shelby.
Shelby & Ford did there things to the AC Cars that were sent to them and called them Cobra.
Shelby/Ford sold several hundred of them, Then stopped making the Cobra. While AC was still sell there cars. Years later Shelby decides to start sell Cobras again, but this time uses REPLICAS of the cars that were original provided by AC Cars of Thames Ditton. Shelby now using CAV,Kirkham and some other manufacture.
NOW SPF has a connection with AC. So wouldn't that make a Shelby a REPLICA of an AC......AC=SPF=AC.

[Richard Hudgins]

Originally posted by Allan A


Help me here as I am familiar with steel construction. You have stated that it takes the same amount of time to fab square or rectangular tubing vs. round tubing. It has been our experience that this is not the case due to the fit up of radius parts. Keeping the center lines is far more difficult, I would have to agree with the REAL 1 this time.

Allan

Allan,

If you are speaking of hand fitment of round tube versus square, you are absolutely correct. Square is easier in most cases.

However, the CSX series and SPF cars are production cars. Therefore, tubing cuts should be automated. Even the JBL chassis tubes, panels, and all brackets are CNC produced.

It has been my experience that fabrication times are equal for round and square stock with proper machine tools and tooling.

Fitment by hand takes forever, no matter what the shape tube if you fit them properly. (In my opinion.)

Chris,

Looking at the two photos, the Shelby car certainly seems to have a greater number of bits welded to it than the SPF. This implies a longer fabrication time.

However, I do wonder how many weld inches are in both and what the real time differences to build might be. 10 hours? 20 hours? 2 hours? If we take the hour difference and multiply by the burden, how large is the cost difference?

(Note: it is much easier for me to weld in a curve as I just cannot make a straight weld on a bet.)



Bandit,

The JBL is not comparable to either one of these chassis. Construction and design are of an entirely different philosophy. Therefore, it must be left out of this cost discussion. JBL chassis photo



Note: I am not in any way making any statements as to which of these (CSX/SPF) chassis are better. I do not have a clue and really do not give a rat's ass either way.

However, I have have driven examples of both and they were both fun. What more can I or anyone say?

[Excaliber]

One of things I like about my Excal is there are so few of them:

Mines #33 of about 150 total cars produced.

Square vs round? HA, I gave up that debate a LONG time ago. For strength, JBL has 'em both beat hands down anyway!

Ernie

[mrmustang]

Gary,

As one of the people who visited SCOF last month, I did not imply anything, I read a few threads in which people where discussing quality issues with the SPF vs others, and made my own observations based on the comments of a few "groupies". I read some other threads at SCOF, and saw other people acting the same way. I did not imply anything evil, I stated facts. Nothing more, nothing less. If you would like me to quote a few things from SCOF, allow me temporary access (you can set up a guest account for a day), and I'll go back in and be more than happy to point out the particulars of each thread and their original authors. I have nothing against SPF owners, their cars, or SCOF. I happen to like the SPF, and the way I go through cars, perhaps I'll own one in the next year or so....However, as stated in my past posts, I call it like I see it, and in this case, the new South African Shelby product has the SPF owners running scared, as quite a few of them bought their cars as investments (read my sig line), and now they are complaining and attacking the "new kid on the block" without ever seeing the product (not that any of us actually have in person). Posturing by a select few SPF dealers and customers over the recent weeks has driven quite a few of us here and elsewhere over the edge with their "ours are better then theirs" rhetoric. As a company SPF is a wonderful thing, having a dealer and support network set up the way they do to keep things in order. As a dealer network though, some business people need to learn to not try to put down other peoples products to make their look better, as it does have a way of backfiring on them (as you can see here). yes, SAI has done the same type of advertising in the past, and they learned their lesson. Now that they learned that they cannot beat the competition in the courts, or on paper, they are doing the next, most logical thihng they could do, try beating them in the marketplace. As for Superformance not being associated with SCOF, yes, they made a wise decision to stave off dealing with discussions such as this. In closing, again I'll say it, I like SPF's, have nothing against SCOF, just some of the people who's posturing is getting out of hand.................


Sincerely,

Bill S.

[Hal Copple]

i am bewildered why anyone not an SPF owner would have any interest in the SCOF forum. I would not have any interest in Bob Putnam''s, or David Kirkam's personal email. i am not a prying, suspecious sort of person. In my own profession, i hear all sorts of "secrets" every day; , i don't want to hear any more about cars. As Gary says, we have little if any desire to mention other replica's. We do refer to CC from time to time, lately mostly to suggest to one another we ought to just quit CC.

A minor correction, the bent SPF spinners have/are being replaced at no cost to those owners affected.

When i first got my SPF, and joined CC about the same time, i did a search for "SPF" and found very few threads. But now as so many more of our cars are on the road, the SPF owners are probably close to a majority of active participants on CC, so there are bound to be some vigorous and confrontational personalities in our ranks as well.

As for the "investment potential" of any of our cars, i have to differ on this. I don't think that folks who make sufficient income to acquire cars this expensive (including other makes), got there by making dumb financial decisions. And buying any replica primarily as an hedge or investment is unwise. We buy them for the same reasons folks buy any replica, to meet some sort of automotive desire. I have never heard of any SPF nor other replica owner lamenting their "return on investment", as there isn't any. They are cars, not investments.

And finally, i doubt Superformance, under Jimmy Price's wing, has any fears from the other South African manufacturer. The company's involved know far more about the business climate they build in, and sell in, than we do. The South African companies have proven they are capabable of making superb replicas, for a reasonable cost. Learning how to get them sold and serviced in the USA is something that takes time.

As an aside, the only car that could get me out of my own SPF is either a Brock SPF Coupe, or a V8 Turbo Lotus Esprit.

[mrmustang]

Hal,

My interest was originally just a "let's take a peak and see whats up". Never posted anything about what I saw, or who posted what there, as it was there, and not here......However, (and I'm sure you can at least agree with me on this point), there seems to be quite a few SPF owners and dealers coming here lately with the need to "posture" themselves and their cars...........

The question that has yet to be answered is why would they bother to do so?????????????


Bill S.

[casaleenie]

You all know, deep in your hearts, that Unique is the best car out there, bar none...

You all know, deep in your hearts, that Superformance is the best car out there, bar none...


You all know, deep in your hearts, that (insert car brand) is the best car out there, bar none....

etc... etc...

Everyone's looking for validation that they did the correct thing..

What was the song with the lyric "love the one your with"?
CSNY??

[ToyCollector]

Gary,

If you recall, and I recommend that this be in the conscience of all current SCOF members, is that there are quite a few former SPF owners out there, myself included. I was also on SCOF for some time. I am willing to agree with 95% of what you say, but I wouldn't call it 100% lilly white either. And those are facts I could prove. There are a couple of folks that got booted off the forum who may have an ax to grind, but they can speak for themselves.

Actually a quick edit: to the moderators, I just saw that early on you asked that this be taken out of this thread, but since the topic was raised again, I thought I would add my 2 cents.

[Excaliber]

Like any "Private Club" there will be a certain curiosity of those not in the "club" to want to take a peek, thats natural enough.

It is logical there IS going to be some intense discussion in the SCOF forum as there is on this forum concerning the impact SAI may have one way or the other, that natural too!

That does not lead me to believe either "Club" is right or wrong, good or bad. SAI just happens to be one of the current hot and controversial topics.

I think Club Cobra in the last year has indeed become better at excepting all brands of "Cobras" for what ever good qualities that brand has. I don't think it's just me that has noticed that, in spite of the occasional flare up of "mines better than yours". I really DO believe those with such a mind set are in the minority, at times a very vocal minority! SOME SPF owners have been a larger than usual part of this vocal minority.

I'm optomistic that will settle down in time. Meanwhile, some of those comments HAVE left me a little bitter toward SPF right now. Thats signifcant because I NEVER felt that way until recently! I'll get over it in time, just like some of the SPF owners will. Sooner is better!

Ernie

[Great Asp]

Allen,

You went to the dark side!

Hey, like Hal said, all the spinners are being replaced at no charge. Not that all the spinners are bad, Superformance is once again going above and beyond.

You know as good as I do that the cars are being made better and better. Jim Price is always looking to improve his product. And if you go to his factory, you can still get a tour!

Eric

[Great Asp]

MrMustang,

Could you follow up on a couple of items on your post to Gary (Hi Dad!)

You wrote :"As one of the people who visited SCOF last month,"

I think you have to own a SPF to get on SCOF, how'd you go there?

You wrote: "South African Shelby product has the SPF owners running scared,"

I have not heard any owners complaining about the Shelby cars dropping their SPF's value. More it has been a discussion of people jumping into a "specialty car", then selling quick. But these people selling quick (not like Alan, or Toy C.), just "bought a Cobra" in the first place. That is, it was an easy thing to dump when things got tough. So they went to the quick sell.

I personally have not seen guys selling, or running scared about their value because of the new Shelby cars.

Just wanting to get my thoughts on the table here.

Eric

[casaleenie]

[quote]Originally posted by Excaliber


[b]Like any "Private Club" there will be a certain curiosity of those not in the "club" to want to take a peek, thats natural enough.


Ernie,

I agree and since you brought it up....... I'm curious as to what goes on in those "Kingdom Halls" you see all over the country.
What's this crap with no windows in any of them... I want a "peek". I think they're all running around jumping up and down with their clothes off but since I can't see in I'm not sure... I'm sure it some kind of secret society. Maybe the SCOF members meet there or something.. Whatever it is I'm sure it's against the law... I think there are people out there that are SCOFfing at us...
I read the National Inquirer "and I wanna know".

[BANDIT 1]

My only issue here is the constant "words being put into SPF owners mouths" that is disturbing. How Mr. Mustang knows that the SPF owners are "running scared" and "bought their cars as investments" is just 100% speculation, PERIOD. Why Mr. Excalibur feels that everytime a SPF owner says they enjoy the handling of their car that they are saying "SPF is the best", again is 100% speculation. I have the right on this forum (I think..) to answer a question someone has asked me (for example: Why did you buy a Superformance Cobra?) with the fact that I did two years research and test drove several cars and was impressed with the engine/transmission combinations, the chassis, the braking, and constant improvements with the car (I had heard great things about Performance Engeineering, I don't think there are any good Big Block Ford builders in the KC Area) and then made my desicision.

BOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!

The same folks take this as me saying "Superformance chassis is the best", NO NEVER SAID IT.

"Superformance has the best replica/Kit Car/"original"/real Cobra made", NO NEVER SAID IT.

ETC....

I have stated before that I feel MOST manufacturers do not give the proper information of what is included with the base price, period. I said this way before the new SIA/CAV Cobra was even a thought, period. I have helped several (atleast 10 people find various manufactured Cobra's , because I like them all..) people find the Cobra of their liking and there is no reason I can't ask a question of a different manufacturer or state differences between manufacturer's and it be taken as a "insult". I have several people interested in a SIA car and it was not a unjust comment in my book to question a company taking in money for a car (at the time) that there wasn't a "demo", pictures of, or any "what is included list".

I have said many times before that I think that some of the Superformance dealers don't give enough informations on options available.

I have been on ProCharger for 3 years to make a supercharger package for the 460/514 engines.

These are all comments, I don't need anyone twisting and changing my words and saying "what I meant".

For those that can't read, I don't have a Superformance Cobra anymore so your talk about "only Superformance owners praising the cars", is incorrect. I am not sure what manufacturer I will use, because I am not sure which version will be built next.

If I go with a 427 SOHC "supercharged" engine it might be a ERA or CSX Cobra.

If I go with a 557c.i. "supercharged" engine it might be a Superformance, ERA, CSX, or mabey someone else.

[mrmustang]

Great Asp ,

I'll be happy to elaborate just a bit:

I visited a friend who owns an SPF, I was sitting debugging his computer and asked if I could log in using his account and tale a peek around, as I was in the market for another Cobra at that time and wanted to see what might have been listed for sale there. It is there I stumbled on a few choice comments in some threads that I had a chance of reading. As someone else who had owned an SPF stated, 95% is clean, and the rest is not (or something along those lines) Next, from the posts not only there, but here as well by SPF owners and dealers (just do a search going back less than several pages, you'll find them), we could see at that time, that the SPF folks were getting a bit jumpy from the new South African Shelby CSX4000 series cars due here soon. Just their attitude and their postureing showed that. You have not personally heard any owners complaining of how these new cars would effect the market, but at the same time, the owners here and there, along with elsewhere on the web all of a sudden "enmass" started to drasticly lower their asking prices by as much as $10,000(in two cases) in order to attract more buyers...Buyers which they obviously saw as being potentially attracted to the new CSX4000 series (three in NJ alone that I know personally from my attempts at selling my Contemporary). So, coupled with what I saw on the SCOF website/forum, coupled with what we have all seen here over the course of the last few weeks, and from personally speaking with several SPF owners who at the time were trying to market their own cars, I came to these conclusions. Again, I have nothing against SPF, or SCOF, I like the cars, and the group of owners in general. I guess it all comes back to the following question which remains unanswered.

Why would the owners of the SPF's (owners and some outspoken dealers) come over here (or anywhere else), and posturize about how much better their cars are than (insert any competition here). Why would they bother to do so, unless they were feeling a bit inferior in one way shape or form?????????????

When that question can be answered in a rational manner, we will then be able to let things like this thread die off...Until then, you'll have certain folks get their panties all tangled, and think that anyone else who does not agree with one party line or another is an attack on their own sensabilities, for which my comments are not meant..............Again, I see things in black and white, no middle ground or gray areas..........Take a step back, look over say the last months worth of postings, and you may seen the pattern in which I speak of...............Thanks again for asking in a civilized manner...So few these days will want to know where both sides are coming from.


Sincerely,

Bill S.