If Chevrolet would have said YES.... (Cobra Related)

[Excaliber]

Can't overlook the impact the "shoe box" cars (55,56,57 Chev's) had on the automotive world in general. In that era Ford simply didn't stand a chance in the "race" for power OR styling. Reality check, the Chevy styling was a run-a-way hit compared to the 55,56,57 Fords of the time. So what WAS Chevy thinking in 1958? LOL

Looking back of course those mid 50's Fords are really cool. But this is now and that was then!

BUTT,,,,the question remains! WOULD the Vette in question (1959 model frame, suspension, weight penalty in spite of the "light weight" body and all) been as successful as the FIA Cobras? Perhaps by 63 or 64 with the NEW 327 AND the NEW IRS suspension?

"Big Brakes" on the Vette were 11" DRUM's with FINS for cooling! THAT alone would have been a severe handicap, exasberated by the additional weight penalty. I'm guessing horse power alone was NOT the solution here!

Ernie

[misfit41]

Hi Ernie,,
Not to start an argument,,but the 55 56 and 57 fords were MORE popular at the time than the chevys,,in almost every way,,numbers sold,,etc,public appeal,,etc,,duraability as well,the chevys didnt really catch on until they were nearly classics,,fords were considered more "upscale",chevy was more the working mans car.the same thing is MORE true in trucks,,
The term "shoebox" was originally used in 49 when ford turned the auto world upside down with a totally new design,the 1949 ford was the first modern car,everyone else followed for 30 years from an engineering/design stand point , look at the 49 thru 54 chevys,,it took gm till 55 to catch up,,ford was the king in enovation in the 50's...chevy didnt have an engine with rod bearings ,,let alone a v8 for over 20 years after ford,,I think I must be older than you,,lol,,I do admit gm did it right with the 265 small block,,way ahead of its time,,
To be honest some of the forgotten cars are to be given credit for many enovations,,studebaker for one,,their designs were to far ahead of their time,, desoto which sold out to dodge was another,,desoto actually built the first hemi,,before dodge bought the failing company along with it's patents,,damn I feel old,,lol
Tk
,,

[Edley Rondinone]

Ford beat Chevy to the market with:
1. Ranchero vs El Camino (1957 vs 1959)
2. OHV V-8 (tho the SBC was/is WAY better than Y block!)
3. Pony car (1965 Mustang vs 1967 Camaro)
4. Retractable Hardtops (1957 vs 2004 SSR)
Granted, over the long haul, Chevy had a finer tuned approach towards engines (SBC and BBC) vs (Y-block/FE/SBF/Cleveland/429-460).........just for what it's worth!! (not much!!)

[G.R.]

Not trying to start a flame war here, but wasn't the Mustang supposed to be Ford's answer to the Corvette--originally a 2 seater I think--but Ford marketing decided a 4 passenger model would sell better--the public did like it and it sold well--and Shelby did his "magic" to it--and it became real popular then--most early production Mustangs had a 6 cylinder and a 3 speed, basic pkg car. Joe Average couldn't afford a GT-350 from Shelby but might afford or could swing a 289 w/4speed option painted in similar Shelby colors--

GM/Chevy read the trend and in '67 came out with the Camaro/Firebird,--even the basic 6 cylinder, 3 speed, had more power than the Mustang(of course Chevy "knew" 6 cylinders ). Pretty soon even the vaunted Mustang HI-PO 289 was history Chevy's ate them up

Finally came to stuffing bigger and bigger blocks into the respective cars, 289, 289 HI-PO vs 283,302--390 vs 327, 396-- 427,428 vs SS396, SS 454, then the LT series.

Ford had "firsts" in a lot of things but their design team was always playing catch - up when it came to style--the '66 El Camino was far better looking IMO than any Ranchero ever built --the '67 was even better

I don't know the statistics of Ford vs Chevy in sales and marketing from the late '60's-early '70's---but on the street I remember kicking lots of Fords in to the gutter, the Fords just couldn't cut it.---

I've had problems with Fords I've owned-- cars and trucks over the years

I know "bite me" but a Chevy never let me down--hell even the Ford rearend in my car took a dump just before the Fling--

BUT a Cobra(even a replica) needs a Ford to be what it is supposed to represent

[Excaliber]

misfit41

Yeah, I think your right, now that I consider it. Fords did enjoy a better reputation in the 50's than Chevy and I do recall seeing some "stats" that support Ford out selling Chevys in that era. I understood the term "shoe box" was referring to the early "model cars" that came in a "box", you know, like a "shoe box". One of the most popular being the 55-57 Chevy.

Of course the Ford flat head V8 is legendary. That Chevy 6 with "babbit" bearings and "dipper" rods was little changed from the 30's (or was it 20's?) until mid 50's, what a joke it was!

Everything changed in 1955, a watershed year for automobiles in general!

Mustang as the answer to the Vette? Yeah, I guess, I just never thought of it that way. T-Bird was the first shot fired in that "war" for sure. The 'Stang was bigger than life, bigger than the Vette. The begining of the "pony car" revolution.

I still would like to have a Studebaker Hawk. Stick shift and super charged V8 would do it nicely! I wouldn't pass up a nice Avanti either!

........I'll pass on a Vette, just not my style.

Ernie

[XXQQQME]

I too will pass on the Vette. Just in the opinion that I'm entitled to. . . . chick's drive Vettes, the Cobra (of any type) is a Man's car.

[Cal Metal]

During the '55-'57 production period, Ford outsold Chevrolet in '57 only--not all three years.

Oldsmobile beat everyone to market with their OHV Rocket V-8 in '49.

The Mustang is the all time "segment" car. A real automotive tour de force. It is hard to imagine anything today eclipsing the Mustang of the mid sixties. The introduction and timing was picture perfect.

OMG:

Before the Corvette gets relegated to "chick" status, you might want to drive the Z06 Corvette. For the money, it is pretty hard to beat.

[RACER X #99]

Cal OMG
Not many Z06 owners cowering at the site of a Cobra at the racetrack.
Many Cobras can outdrag the Vette on the strightaway but in the corners while the Cobra drivers are tiptoeing around, the Vette is cruising along to the next corner.(see posts by Coyled)

RD

[misfit41]

I think we all agree to a point,,and everyone is greatly influenced by what dad drove most,,me included,,I got a little different insight from working for ford and gm both,,
I agree Chevy had the stuff on styling,I suppose thats why i liek fords,EVERY gm car from 62 untioo the 70's looked great it seemed,,with fords there few a few standouts ,the rest of them no good girl would be caught dead in the back seat,,{or was it just me} lol
I also agree on the ranchero,,the falcon ones were cool,,after that it was just plain ugly.,,
I definately think the tbird was the ette rfighter,,but that went haywire too after the bright idea of making it a sled.
I belive pontiac was really on the front of the mid size muscle car thing,but the mustang changed everything,,I remember when a pony car was a mustang,,it still offend me a bit when I hear the term used to over the whole gamat.
I also agree the average chevy would dust the average ford,but the few whopulled up beside a high horse fairlane and soem of the other bad ones got suprised,when I was 16 the fastest car in town was a 64 falcon,289 hipo with lots of goodies and a motorcraft 4 bbl,,no front shocks,toploader and slicks all the time,beat lots of camaros including a 69 yenko that used to be around town,I also remember beating my buddies 69 383 road runner with my 63 galaxie 390 4 spd,,that was sweet,,although I had to fight him afterwards,,those were the days,,Tk

[misfit41]

Ps Cal,,
My Dad had a 50 ford coupe with an olds super88,milled heads and hydromatic with super gear in the mid 50's,,supposedly the bad car around in its day,,he says it shifted at 90 and smoked tires,would run the round speedo past 100 up to 15 the other side,,it was confiscated by the state police in an illegal whiskey bust,,true story,I do have some pics of it. had to say that to squelch any rumors contrary to my being a hick,,,Tk

[Cal Metal]

For you statistics freaks like myself, here is the '55-'57 Chevrolet v. Ford production comparisons:

Chevrolet:

1955: 1,714,000
1956: 1,434,000
1957: 1,514,000

Ford:

1955: 1,449,000
1956: 1,426,000
1957: 1,675,000

Looks like the '55 Chev gets top honors for this period.

[Buzz]

Never mind the Ford vs. GM thing. How about Ernie vs Misfit: who has the record for the most commas in one sentence,,,,,,,????

[Excaliber]

,,,,,,,,and don't forget my "profound" use of these " "

lol

I know the 57 Chev seems to be the most "popular". But personally my favorite was the '56. In Fords, the '57.

Ernie

[Edley Rondinone]

The Corvette would have been dead in the water after its first few, miserable-selling years...Once Ford brought out its Thunderbird in 1955, and whupped Corvette in sales, prestige, panache, etc etc, GM HAD to keep its fiberglas darling around. The SBC helped immensely......GR, I disagree that the 66 and 67 El Caminos beat the Rancheros in styling...the 'Camino looked like the box that the (early '60s) Rancheroo was shipped in!! lol !! I personally like the '57 Ford styling WAY better (IMHO) than any of the Chevys! Much more curvy, sensuous styling of the sides and rear end, with tasteful fins at that outre' angle, over those "Barbie-Boob" taillights....but the front of the 57 Ford looks too much like the 56 Chevy! lol !!

[G.R.]

I never really much cared for any of the 55-57 Ford or Chevy "posts" or coupes, convertibles were ok--my favorites were the Nomads, any year, and the wagons or sedan deliverys, Fords 2 door 56 wagon or sedan delivery just had a look to it, if you know what I mean

Ernie
And the 'Bird--was underpowered, overpriced--Ford marketing thought it would be a better seller as a 4 passenger--Thus came the pre-cursor of the "bloatmobile", that's why Mustang came along, the concept shown at, I think, Detroit in 62(?) was a 2 seater sporting a V-8 and I think a floor mounted 3-speed ala the early 'Birds --

Also you put down the Chevy 6--Amazing fact if they were so unreliable--How come so many old 40s and 50s Chevy trucks are still running today?Not many Fords out there from that era still running with the orginal flathead engine---one other thing on race tracks around the country an Offy prepped Chevy 6 was hard to beat --Offenhauser knew how to build the engine into a real performer--and that it did on the strip and on both the circle and dirt tracks--Fords flatheads couldn't compete--

One other note early Toyota Land Cruisers used a Chevy 6 as their prototype for their engine from its introduction unti lthey quit production dropping the "jeep" type vehicle--

I guess this a Ford based site so I better shut-up now

[Eddy K]

I really don't think that I can agree that the 289/302 Fords engines couldn't compete with the small block Chevy.
I had a 65 Mustang with a slightly warmed over 302 that more than held it's own with the Camaros and Corvettes around here.
It had a toploader, Shelby intake and a mild solid lift cam so I am sure it similiar to what you would find in a factory Corvette.
I don't remember ever losing to a Corvette on the dragstrip and I was also challenged to a race by a guy with a 70 442 Olds. I was able to beat him too.
This car was really very mild. Maybe the combination was just right or whatever but I never lost too many races to GM cars.

[G.R.]

And I rarely lost to Fords in my 67 Camaro Z-28, modified ,mild cam, Edlebrock hi-rise, Holley (?can't remember)4 barrell, headers, Hurst/Muncie T-10 etc.,---of course in any town there is, or maybe always one that is quicker, and faster than you man those were the days when you'd go "huntin'" with your friends on a Weekend night, lookin' to find someone to challenge you then go to some nice deserted road in the country and run 'em off--- young, dumb and feeling invincible

[G.R.]

PS it was only a 302

[bmalone]

Gary, my Ford would have eaten you for lunch.

406 in '66 Fairlane w/ 428 crank.

[Excaliber]

Psssst,,,,G.R. those "old" Chevys your talking about that are still on the road have a 1955 or newer 6 in them! The venerable 235 cid Chev 6 was a workhorse and very reliable motor, circa 1955 until 1960 something?

Before 1955 or so? The rod bearings were "poured" or "cast" of a lead like material, they were not "inserts" like ALL motors have had since 1955 or so. "Babbit" bearings they were!

Pre 1955.....oil pump in the Chev 6? We don't need no stinkin' oil pump!

The bottom of the connecting rod had a little "scoop" on it that "dipped" into a narrow "tray" mounted just below the connecting rod. The little "scoop" led to a hole drilled though the connecting rod so the oil would be forced into the hole and onto the crankshaft journal. The faster you went the more the little scoop would "sling" the oil into the hole. They had NO oil filter either! A big after market add on was the "toilet paper" (literally) filter, but you knew that! LOL

Thus, "dipper rods". Now theres some "hi tech" oiling going on!

It is noteworthy that the GM 6 did have over head valves way back in the 30's however!

Ernie