Did the Cobra exist before Carroll Shelby visited AC?

[Turk]

It is amazing how some of the hottest threads, even if Evan started it, always has one or two who will always chime in and suggest this is beneath them. Some very condesending posts in here.

Argue all you want, say what you want. This is what the forum is about, but please don't jump in and jump out with the remarks as some above..

I have more respect with those who will argue their point of view within the confines of civility than those who will jump in say a few words and as we fail to agree or understand what they are saying, they will dismiss the thread as being a total waste of one's valuable time.

Many of us obviously have nothing better to do than to participate and feel it was well worth the effort to say what we say. I am sorry to see that you don't have the time to do the same.
You DO have the time to tell the rest of us, we should be doing something else with our time.

TURK

[mrmustang]

Ok Turk, So which do you think came first, the chicken or the egg????


Bill S.

PS: Lighten up "dude"

Originally posted by Turk


It is amazing how some of the hottest threads, even if Evan started it, always has one or two who will always chime in and suggest this is beneath them. Some very condesending posts in here.

TURK

[RACER X #99]

A REAL burger

[Tom T.]

Turk,

I'll expand: Drag the dead horse off and grind it up for horseburgers--that's what White Castle does!

TT

[computerworks]

Originally posted by mrmustang


PS: Lighten up "dude"

I know Turk, Bill ...and he's no dude.

Originally posted by Turk
It is amazing how some of the hottest threads, even if Evan started it, always has one or two who will always chime in and suggest this is beneath them. Some very condesending posts in here.

What is more disturbing to me... that SuperSnake, a Superformance dealer, has nothing better to add than stupid hamburger posts in a veiled attempt to derail a thread started by his nemesis. That's not condescending...that's sad.

There is nothing inappropriate with the topic...although it's been beaten to death in the past.. and although the question was answered very early in the thread.. if members want to discuss this over and over... hey, it's OK. No foul....just keep the discussion friendly and on-topic.

[Tom T.]

but I've got this big old DEAD horse to dispose of! You're right, of course, it can certainly be discussed for the millionth time, but that includes my right to observe that it stinketh a bit at this point. Oh oh...that horse isn't dead, "he's resting!" (Monty Python Dead Parrot Bit--right up there with their Climbing the Streets of London Bit).

TT

[BANDIT 1]

The problem here is that several folks dwell on only part of someone's reply and leave the "good" things that the person has said about Shelby out.

The facts are simple, the body that we call the "Cobra" existed before shelby (although it was "modified" with the 427 S/C, you can't "modify" something that didn't already exist). It is a fact that after seeing various British cars with "Cobra-like" traites, that most of these cars had items copied from each other.

People here make it sound like AC corporation would have not been able to get another engine manufacturer for their cars, we don't know that. Several Nascar teams lose their sponser each year, if Gatorade picks one up does that mean the Nascar team would have gone under without them? Hell no! It is made to sound that the owners and employee's of AC were just a bunch of losers that were going under until Mr. Shelby "walked on water" to save them. Give the folks at AC their due credit, after all they built the damn car!

Do you think Ford was going out of buisness and Mr. Shelby came to their rescue? Hell no! There were people at Ford that had to do their part in getting the Cobra to be a reality. Where is the credit for them?

Several folks on this forum say that without Mr. Shelby there would be no AC wth a "big V8". Quite frankly, we don't know if someone else would have put a V8 in the AC or not. I will say that there wouldn't be a AC Cobra without Mr. Shelby, however there wouldn't be a AC Cobra without AC saying "yes" and Ford saying "yes" either.


Where is the credit for the "real" designers, the engine builders (I guess Mr. Shelby designed and built the 427 SO engine also), the race car drivers, etc...

Let's agree that Mr. Shelby (like others...) had a huge part in the evolution of the 427 Cobra, however that does not let him get away with the "negative" things he has done. Everone should be held accountable.....just ask Pete Rose.

[REAL 1]

All this out of such a simple question!

The question was posed originally as a result of a claim made by a well know member on the muckracker thread. Interesting that we still haven't heard a word from him or any facts to back his assertion.

BTW Turk and Russ Dickey are right.

Supersnake: Thanks for your latest vitriol. Maybe one day you'll find the chestnuts to discuss my eating methods in person next time I'm up at HRE. However, you should know I never ate a White Castle burger. Replica burgers for sure.
I only eat REAL burgers as shown by Racer X.

[ERA649]

Evan,

I have to give you credit, anytime you post you get action.

Only a History Major would say "revisionist history" most people don't understand the term. It's nice to know that at least two history majors were ale to do well enough to afford cobra's, one real and one not ( but real to me).

While I was in college everyone said, " what are you going to do with that major" now I have the answer - buy a Cobra.

Mike

[Super-Snake]

Ron,

I am very disappointed in your post. Everyone knows who I am. I was playing and admitted it in my second post to this thread, which I posted a few minutes after my original. I appreciate what you and Turk do for clubcobra and have never attacked either of you personally when you have made comments or decisions that I disagree with. If I felt so compelled I would have written you a personal email before attacking either of your characters.

If you read between the lines you would notice that I made a valid point... though veiled in humor

The hamburger existed for x amount of time before a few entrepeuners created new variations.

It was those that did something special about the hamburger that were successful and brought their products to the millions or billions. (ie the Big Mac, the Whopper, the White Castle). They also either continued to enhance their product line or had such a successful idea from day one that they continue to flourish today.

The automobile existed before there was a car called the AC Ace and before a man named Shelby. Shelby created the 'whatever' represented by the name "Cobra".

Do you see any parallel?

Sure I pushed the white castle idea but it was fun and several people enjoyed it. It also lightened the mood a little bit and by no means sidetracked the original argument.


AS for Evan..

I have no problem saying anything I type about you to your face. Come stop by one day. You had no problem coming to my fathers shop when you were trying to figure out what color to paint your replica 4000. You also had no problem coming to the SPF display at SAAC 25 at Lime Rock when you had your ERA. You know the ERA that CS told you was a fake? You also have had no problem stopping by when there were openhouses or other events. We also had an hour long conversation about your clubcobra postings a few years ago when you stopped by and both remained civil and laughed.

As long as you continue to post your comments there will be many a club cobra member lurking in the darkness ready to take a jab at you. Some more often than others.

-le snake

[Super-Snake]

One other point of clarification.

I run a cosmetics company that my family owns. My father owns privately a car shop that happens to sell Superformance Products. Whatever involvement I have with him at his shop is for fun. And to think of it, any involvement he has is for fun also. And we are both the first to admit that to anyone that asks or that we feel like saying it to (which is quite often).

The above certainly explains the feeling of family and community with all of the replica enthusiasts that come thru the doors everyday. The day that I dont cherish that feeling is the day that I stop visiting and the day that my father stops cherish that feeling is the day that he closes the doors and plays with the toys by himself.

-dan

[Turk]

Tom T.
I almost posted a disclaimer that my post wasn't directed at you fearing you might take it wrong. It wasn't. You are always civil.

Bandit,
Taking excerpts from posts and shooting holes in them is a style of debate that lends itself to written debate better than if we were face to face. Not everything you say in your post is debatable, and leaving out things that don't need a response is obvious.

Shelby does get credit for the Cobra and SHOULD for the same reason Jello gets credit for the product. Before Jello, gellatin, water, color red, and sugar were all in existence. It is safe to say Mr. Jellowois did not invent anything. He mixed all those ingredients up and put them in a box. Rest is history, totally useless, food we all love in many colors.

AC does get credit for their part. They were a donor to a noble cause. There is a reason why Shelby did not do this on a Vauxhall, or a Borgward chassis. The lines, the artistic side of Cobra is NOT Shelby's. The old man never claimed to be an artist or designer. He refers to himself as an innovator. Not an Inventor.

We can give credit to others for their contribution to the Cobra.
I am sure AC did not invent round wheels, or doors or windshields. The argument is not why we don't acknowledge all the contributors to the inventor of every component on the car, but the car itself. It is like saying without Texaco, there would have been no Cobra. True, but a pointless fact.

If we start acknowledging who contributed what in the creation of the car, would we have to go back to Brazil for the origins of the rubber tree, and the mines where the iron ore came from?

If Carroll didn't someone else might have is like saying if Bill Gates didn't someone else would have. They might have but they didn't.

I think what irks people is the credit CS gets for something as simple as what he did. Take two things that came from two different places and make something unique out of it that is more than the sum of it's parts.

Other than that he did not do much more. We would be more willing to give him credit if he had invented the Internal Combustion Engine.

Ford and GM and others do it today and use engines made by others to grace their cars, and have no apologies for having created a new car. Can we cut CS the same slack?

GM is using Isuzu engines in some of their trucks, and apologize to no one.

Pete Rose will also be remembered for what he did for the the game. His shortcomings will be a footnote to his professional accomplishments. So will Shelby's.

Why do you have such a sour taste for him in your mouth?

TURK

[computerworks]

Dan... it wasn't a personal attack, not at all... just an observation.
Levity is fine... I saw it as mockery, which is another thing.
I guess the satire would have been clearer to me if you explained it like you just did here. Thanks.

It just seems to me that you are always ready to jump out of the bushes.... on certain threads.

Like it or not, you represent the dealership to many.

[Super-Snake]

thank you Ron. Duly noted.

There are many occasions where I would love to post. I actually type and then close the screen before posting. If you notice I generally only post when announcing a long island cobra club event, racing, or occasionally pick on Evan.

Because of the association that some perceive I cant discuss many things I would like. The truth is that I have no right or authority to discuss many areas and specifically none on behalf of SPF. None of the independant spf dealers have that right as evidenced by none posting.

That point must be made perfectly clear.

I limit my posts and when i do I leave the caveat that I speak only on behalf of myself. And I believe that most participants in this forum understand that.

I apologize for the confusion.

-dan

[Turk]

Super Snake,
The sentiments of the "community" and those that "come through the door" of a Superformance dealer may very well be just as you described. I wouldn't consider that a neutral turf.

I bet the sentiments maybe different in Las Vegas and among those who are going through the doors of Shelby. It certainly was during the SAAC events.

Let's face it, SPF owners are not the biggest fans of CS. They hold Jim Price in higher regard than they do CS. Nothing wrong with that, except it doesn't do a damn thing to define who created invented, innovated Cobra. It sure in the hell wasn't JP.

BTW, no one accused you of attacking "our characters".

TURK

[Super-Snake]

Thank you Turk.

With regard to neutrality you have not come through the doors. Specifically today there are approximately 30 replica owners enjoying free food, hospitality and comraderie. There is even a clubhouse with couches, tv/video/dvd/etc.

Many who visit regularly never spent a dime at the shop and all own different makes and models. If you took a poll you would be very surprised how many dont own SPF's. Some even own CSX-4000's that were sold to them by my father when he was HRE's Partner when CS first went back into business in the early 90's.

The next time you are in NY feel free to stop by.

Dan

[Tom T.]

Alright, people, I've got the damn horse back on his feet, but he's woozy. We've once again descended into not so veiled threats that someone might get his block knocked off. THIS IS GETTING REALLY STUPID. What the hell is wrong with us? As Bill Murray said, "It just DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Cobra schmobra, Shelby welby, SPFriggin' WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Turk, no sweat. You're the only guy in the retail main line car sales business worth a damn. Honest, sincere, trustworthy. And, you're cute. Even without Jamo's derriere.

Hasta,

TT

[Turk]

Tom,
Gee Thanks.
You too are my favorite lawyer. You are cute too!
Now for my peace of mind...how close are you to San Francisco? Castro particulary!!

TURK

[Bluesman]

I think this topic can't be solved. I also think this hasn't much to
really do with the original thread.
This is "Real 1" trying to get "Meat's" comments invalidated.
Ego is so important. The ol' "truth told with bad intent, beats all the lies you can invent" was thown out at Real 1. And I can't blame him for coming up with this topic. I see it as the hidden agenda. True, Meat sounds bitter. But like I said, this thread has no solution. When was the last time you convinced a grown man that he is wrong? When was the last time a grown man has ackknowledged you are correct and he wasn't? Time for all of us to jump off the game board and pick a new game.

[Tom T.]

Bluesman, elegant in its simplicity, ain't it.

TT