Did the Cobra exist before Carroll Shelby visited AC?

[Super-Snake]

I would also like to add that many of these "customers" have become some of the best friends my father and I have. They bring all sorts of foods/items/etc for everyone to share when they stop by, always offer a hand to anyone that asks (or dont ask), and are just good guys.

[Russ Dickey]

I know, I know, it's a dead pony. But some of you guys, especially Bandit 1, just don't seem to be getting how the product development/licensing/royalty thing works. I'll try to simplify:

Shelby took two exisiting products and merged them into one, make subtle but definitive changes/modifications to each, thus creating a brand new product. Doesn't matter if the name "Cobra" had been used before, or if the AC car's that looked similiar had been out for years, Shelby's Cobra is a BRAND NEW product. He doesn't have to pay AC or Ford royalties at the time, because they are all partners in the effort, and each are profiting from it's manufacturer and sale.

Now, fast-forward a decade or two. If anybody else is going to use that product's likeness on down the road, then they legally need to pay the original creator to use it. Yes, you can all argue that FFR, SPF, ERA, etc., etc., have made their own modifications and improvements to the original design, thus creating their own new products, but the fact that their product is based on the likeness of the original obligates them to pay Shelby a royalty.

Just like in my first example, I would have to pay Jeff Gordon and Dale Jr. additional royalties if I created a new product which utilized two exisiting Gordon and Earnhardt products, for which they had already been paid! That's the way the law works. It may not have worked this way for Shelby, but again, in my opinion it comes back to a time issue. He just waited too long to go after the replica mfrs. I can assure you that had Shelby acted earlier, and gone after Steve Arntz or whoever the first replica mfr. was, he would have won his case.

I mean, look at it this way: when the diecast collectible companies want to make a 1/18th (or whatever) scale collectible version of a Cobra, THEY HAVE TO PAY A ROYALTY TO SHELBY. And that's on a damn toy! Why should a full size version be any different????

Again, who cares that Shelby waited 20 years to try and get some $$$ from the replica companies? They are profiting from builiding vehicles that replicate the likeness of a NEW vehicle that he created and made famous around the world.

Bandit, you keep harping that Shelby "is just out to make money". What do you do for a living??? Were you Mother Theresa's personal assistant, or work for a non-profit organization? Do you give any extra money that you have to charity?? I think the fact that I see you are builiding a 577ci Cobra means no. Deal with the fact that we capitalists are out to make money.

It all comes down to integrity: if YOU had created a product, which garners you a little money and fame at the time, then 20 years later 100 other companies take a nearly-exact replica of your product and begin making even more money, wouldn't YOU feel slighted?? Do a gut check and answer honestly. Of course you would. And rightfully so.

Peace Out.

Russ

[REAL 1]

Hey, I recognize it's always open season on me.

Yeah we had some laughs at your shop. Yes, I was looking at some colors in helping to decide. I particularly liked the Titainum Silver.

Thats very kind of you Supersnake to invite me to your dealership to hurl insults to my face. Is that a personal invitation or extended on behalf of your SPF dealership? Do all SPF dealers extend such invitations? I know for a fact they don't. Must be something in the water in N.Y.

I regularly try to avoid stupping to the juvenile level of throwing out personal insults and suggest it reflects poorly on you even if they are just directed at me, a fairly common sport here at CC and another site. Personal insults usually indicate that the source of the insults haven't the ability to respond intelligently and offer convincing or pursuasive agruments in rebuttle based on fact. I think such juvenile behavior also reflects poorly on your shop. If you don't think so feel free to continue on. I just laugh. I would think someone connected with a SPF dealer participating on this website would act more professional.

Bluesman hit the nail on the head!

Russ Dickey: Right on the money!

P.S. Supersnake: BTW I forgot to mention that I didn't select the SPF Titanium Silver for my Cobra because I didn't want it mistaken for a SPF.

[Excaliber]

I wonder if the toy people have to pay because they use the Shelby name? I suspect that is the difference.

As far as playing the "Maybe Game",,,,maybe AC would have had a V8. Maybe a lot of things could have would have should have.

Fact is, Shelby did what he set out to do, build a race car. Didn't have to use AC, but he did. Didn't have to use Ford, but he did. It was HIS dream, HIS idea, it would have been done with out without the "other players". In the end, it was and remains a GREAT TEAM! I think it worked out perfectly!

Ernie

[Russ Dickey]

Originally posted by Excaliber


I wonder if the toy people have to pay because they use the Shelby name? I suspect that is the difference.


Ernie

Ernie:
Point taken, but I challenge anyone to try and make a diecast collectible of a Cobra, leave off the emblems and any references to Shelby, don't pay any royalties to anyone, and see what happens.

What's really screwed up though, is that not only would you get sued by Shelby's licensing group, but you'd probably get sued by FFR, SPF, and every other replica company who sells a car that looks like a Cobra but leaves off the emblems, and most likely lose to all of them as well.

Russ

[Tom T.]

Evan's taken away his "holiday" gift pledge a few weeks ago not to participate in such discussions. Meat insults Evan, Evan hits back. Life in the sandbox. Provocations, dares, insults, threats.

[BANDIT 1]

Turk:

Your "opinion" that Superformance owners hold Mr. Price higher than Mr. Shelby is absolutely crazier than anything I have even heard Evan say. Do you actually believe what you just wrote? When it comes to honor, integrity, honest, etc... Mr. Price is in another league.

Mr. Dickey:

I haven't disputed Mr. Shelby's contribution to the Cobra. I was under the assumption that the Cobra's were purchased through the Ford dealerships as a Ford product. How does that make AC and Ford working for Carroll Shelby.

As far as my honor, integrity, honesty, etc. are concerned, I was brought up to live my life with honesty, integrity, honor, etc... That is how my parents raised me. Am I perfect? No! Have I ever lied? Yes! Do I steal? No! Do I con people? No!

I own my own Electronics Corporation and EVERYONE that has ever done buisness with me knows that I would never give up my honesty and integrity to make a buck, period!

I have contributed and helped with over 500 charitable events and have had my Cobra on display at over 30 of them. Most events were for Children or the families of someone that has passed away.

[Russ Dickey]

Bandit:
The whole point of this thread was whether the Cobra existed before Shelby, which I said no and attempted to defend, and you have attempted to dispute. Most of which is in your most recent post has nothing to do with the topic.

I'm glad you have done some great things for charity, and I commend you for it. My point was that by always bantering on that "Shelby is only about money", you had better not live in a glass house before casting that stone. I am sure that at one time or another, you may have had a business deal go bad, or made a bad decision in your business. But through it all, you had to look out for #1: yourself, your name, and your organization; while at the same time remaining as profitable as possible. How is Carroll Shelby different???

In addition, you didn't answer my last question: What would YOU do if you developed some kick-butt piece of electronics equipment, then years later someone copied it almost exactly? Wouldn't you feel obligated to a piece of the action???

Even though the Cobra was sold through Ford dealerships, it was a product of Shelby American, not Ford, much like the current relationship with Saleen. Steve gets his own royalties and license agreements, and so should Shelby with respect to any car that replicates in shape, form, or fashion, a Shelby Cobra ('cuz it didn't exist before him).

Russ

[mrmustang]

Ron,

I've had the privilege of meeting up with Turk a few times over the past several years. At Carlisle when he was hounding the ERA gang (similar to my rainman skit about the FFR 289FIA, really not a pretty site mind you, at least not in Turks case ), and at the DVSF III last year....yes, while he is no "dude" (perhaps when he was younger, and baseball tickets only cost $1), I believe in this case he needs to lighten up just a bit...... Perhaps it's the stress of knowing that I have filed 15,000 seperate lawsuits looking for each and every backordered part of my "roadserpent" 289FIA


Bill S.

Originally posted by computerworks

I know Turk, Bill ...and he's no dude.

[BANDIT 1]

Originally posted by Russ Dickey




Bandit, you keep harping that Shelby "is just out to make money". What do you do for a living??? Were you Mother Theresa's personal assistant, or work for a non-profit organization? Do you give any extra money that you have to charity?? I think the fact that I see you are builiding a 577ci Cobra means no.

Mr. Dickey:

I responded to your post, mabey you should read your own post.

I have NEVER said I care about Mr. Shelby wanting to make alot of money. You have obviously mistaken me for someone else. Quite frankly, I don't think Mr. Shelby does what he does for just money. I think he just has to have more and more and could care less how he get's it, period.

As to the original question, let's not play with words. The Cobra was obviously the name Carol Shelby gave the AC car. Obviously the body style existed before Shelby, period!

[Super-Snake]

Evan,

Of course I dont offer those types of invitations.

I just think that you are "SPECIAL" with "SPECIAL NEEDS".

I am glad that you feel honored.

-dan

[Jamo]

Actually, the rubber tree's origin is in southeast Asia, and was transplanted to Brazil, as well as Africa, and grown in large plantations due to the shorter distance to the user markets and the availability of slave labor.

I suggest, strongly, that folks keep their cool.

[LURK]

Oh NOW you've gone and done it!

Yeah what Jamo said.. y'all need to get over yourselves already

I recommend the old saying of "I never regretted a post I didn't make." As for me? After a good night's sleep I decided that I won't be sending a ring to Wilf (boy THERE'S a post I would do over again differently! )

I did want to say that, as a newbie, I actually do enjoy hearing the lore and the different points of view- it's all good- even if it's just too much of a dead horse for some of you. It's still mostly a good read and easy enough to skip the rest.

-JT

[Russ Dickey]

Guys, I think a lot of you take these postings too seriously. The whole purpose is to express opinions and to sometimes discuss things that are a bit controversial. And I think that's what we're doing here.

I harbor no bad feelings towards anybody in Club Cobra, regardless of what they posted, and have yet to make a post that I regretted. Bandit and I have had these type of conversations before (and in fact, so have REAL 1 and I, it's just this time, we're on the same side), and usually we just end up agreeing to disagree. That's what these forums are all about. Heck, haven't you guys ever had a fist fight with one of your best buddies, then immediately afterwards went out for a beer and a laugh??? So I owe Bandit a 12-pack...

My one big forum rule is that I never post anything that I wouldn't say in person to someone's face. I've had these same type of conversations before with car club members sitting around a table at Applebee's, and it's all good.

Gotta go now. The Mid America Cobra Club meeting starts in just a little while, and I'm hosting it. Time to pick this place up!

Russ

[wilf leek]

Lurk - I am so very hurt. How can you spurn me so?

I did everything you asked and yet, somehow, it was still not enough for you. If betrothal is too big a step for you right now, can I at least tell folks we are going steady?





( for any innocent bystanders - THIS IS STILL A JOKE!)

[LURK]

uhhh.. won't Turk get jealous? I heard he's a real "dude." Oh.. oops.. did I let the cat out of the...

[REAL 1]

Supersnake: I'm honored you think I'm special.

I think you're special too!

Were even.

Next time I'm up at HRE I'll let you know. Come on over and say hello. I'll buy the coffee. Sorry, no White Castle.



Russ Dickey: Well stated once again. Eloquently and accurately put sir.

If we ever meet at the Fling I'd like to buy you a beer (or a shot of Raki if available).

Tom T.: I didn't break my promise. Not once did I argue or state the the new Continuation series is a REAL Cobra on this thread (oops!, just did, sorry )

Anyway, Meats insults directed at me are par for the course. I just simply wanted some support factually for the statement he made that the Cobra existed before CS. I dislike revisionist history so I was just asking for some backup, factually for the statement. He said it and I believe his "Definitive Time Line" says it also. Where are the facts to support the claim and references. Thats all thats sought here. Very simple.

All here seem to agree with me that CS came along first then the Cobra was created by him. All the books I've read by recognized authors on the subject all say the same thing.

[mrmustang]

Evan,

So, now that all of this is settled, you want to answer my question of which came first, the chcicken, or the egg, and which was real, and which was a replica .

Enjoy the new year.



Bill S.

[John McMahon]

White Castle also makes a Fish Sandwich, a Chicken Sandwich and a Jalapeno Cheesburger! They affectiionately now use the nickname of "Slyders"

You can buy them by the Sack (of 10) or the new crave case.

[BANDIT 1]

Originally posted by REAL 1






Russ Dickey: Well stated once again. Eloquently and accurately put sir.

Talk about kissing a$$ to makes friends...