Breaking Cobra News - Page 4

computerworks · #61 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1

I'm not convinced they are using original tooling. The Jim Price issue is a concern. Didn't he buy all the tooling and rights? Isn't he in litigation with Lubinsky over this issue? Hmmm.

Original tooling is not in question.
It is a fact, back then, that AC outsourced the fabrication of the body panels to an assortment of local "tin-bangers" in the area. There were multiple sets of wooden bucks and forms at several suppliers to AC.

Excaliber · #62 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 09:10 AM

A market for such a high priced Cobra? Obviously SAI thinks there is a market! I would agree with that also.

The AC/Shelby/English connection with these cars will be a powerful draw to some and I can understand that.

Personally I feel this is as close as anyone could possibly get to being "original" without a time machine. Made in England, shipped to the USA for final assembly by Shelby himself. Heck this car will be a time machine.

Makes sense that AC would have sub contracted some of the body work out, thus more than one set of "original" bucks around.

Fenders and doors won't interchange on the old Aston Martins, as they were hand built and no two were exactly the same. I wonder how the new Cobras will be done? Perhaps "perfection" is not "all that" after all?

Ernie

REAL 1 · #63 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 10:03 AM

The cost differential I'm sure is related to the cost of labor and production methods which are slower and more costly and not as advanced as the Kirkham produced cars. Also the exchange rate doesn't help.

The aluminum Shelby produced by the Kirkham Bros I'm sure is every bit as good quality wise, maybe even better then the new AC produced bodies and chasis. There is an allure for some as to the AC. Same car. Different fabricator. Even AC sub'd some of the 'tin' panel work out.

For me, the AC connection doesn't matter at all. The important part for me is that its a "Shelby Cobra". Period. They were Shelby's babys especially the FIA and 427 cars. The 427 car was developed, tested and designed by Shelby in house. Having the body and chasis fabricated by AC today just doesn't mean anything to me. Some may feel different and pony up the additional $80K but not me for the exact same car.

While some some original bucks may be used what about the original chasis jigs? Again, doesn't Jim Price have owership of these?

In the end they are all Shelby Cobras. Thats whats important.

Nuke427 · #64 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1

For me, the AC connection doesn't matter at all. The important part for me is that its a "Shelby Cobra". Period. Some may feel different and pony up the additional $80K but not me for the exact same car.

Are you sure that this doesn't bother you a little bit? In some peoples eyes, this would make your car just a little less desirable as compared to the newer AC complimented Cobras. You pretty much owned the best reproduction of the Shelby Cobra that money could buy. Now there will be one that is not only in the registery, but built buy the same two original companies. As for bucking up the extra cash, isn't that what you did to purchase your SAI? Couldn't you have bought the same exact car not in the registery for less?
I'm not starting a conversation on whether or not your car is real, I'm just curious as to your negativity towards this proposed endeavor.

REAL 1 · #65 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 10:49 AM

Interesting. I like the idea of an AC/Shelby car. Neat actually. Theres no negativity at all.

Is there added panche' and allure to some. Of course.

Would I like one. Yup. You bet.

Would I trade one for mine even up if they were exactly the same in every way. Yup, based on the value of the AC produced car being more expensive from the get go I would be foolish not to.

Would I spend $80K more for the same exact car just to say it was fabricated by AC or their subcontractors in England when I can have the same aluminum Shelby Cobra albeit having been fabricated by Kirkham Bros for 80K less? Nope. No way. The fact that AC fabricated it today just doesn't have that allure for me. To some it may be worth the extra money. I don't see it.

With regard to the 427, AC was a fabricator to Shelby specs. Thats all.

The allure for me comes from the fact it is a "Shelby Cobra" and from SAI. But thats me.

Nuke427 · #66 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the reply. I can't see it worth that much extra either. But, that's just me.

computerworks · #67 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1

While some some original bucks may be used what about the original chasis jigs? Again, doesn't Jim Price have owership of these?

Chassis jigs are laid out to print spec... the frame is built to that spec; the jig is not unique... it is a fabricated tool to help weld 'em together.

REAL 1 · #68 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 11:06 AM

Ron: Point is the Shelby's are all made to the same specs regardless of jig or buck used whether English, Polish or SA.

They are all "Shelby Cobras" built to the same spec.

Dan Semko · #69 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 11:43 AM

Evan,
You post a valid question. As I understand, Jim Price owns the exclusive "production rights" to all cars at the Frimley plant. Jim Price recently "reopened" the plant so that the unemployed fabricators wouldn't loose their homes and livelihoods.
I've sent questions to some knowledgeable friends for clarification and will post the information when it is verified and becomes available.
Something is not adding up.

HIQ · #70 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 12:54 PM

This is very interesting. The more you think about it, the more you question the true value of this. So you can have -

-Option #1 : SAI Kirkham based Cobra for $85K -or-
-Option #2 : SAI AC based Cobra for $145K

It is "nice" that it a Shelby AC Cobra, but I just don't see the value.

brentfenimore · #71 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 12:54 PM

Just a few words and I will leave this one alone, I do not want to start a war and get the thread off track.

The CSX1000 Shelby AC Cobra price will be $145,000 or less, a typical painted CSX4000 aluminum bodied Shelby Cobra runs approx $87,000 so the price differance is actually $58K not $80K as suggested and certainly not $200K as a finished vehicle unless someone pulls a fast one on you.

We are not attempting to mass produce this product and in fact have not based the program on large production quantities. We have already had multiple inquires on the product none of which have balked at the $145K figure.

The AC UK plant at Frimley is not under the management of Mr. Price and the staff was not brought back by his actions but rather by Mr. Lubinsky the rightful owner of the company. The tooling is some of the original sets of which they produced cars on in the 60's. As I posted over four months ago I was at the plant when it was reopened and walked through the entire platform at that time. We are in constant contact with the management group that is running the facility and several cars are in process at this time.

R Brent Fenimore

Dan Semko · #72 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 01:06 PM

Brent,
If my information is incorrect, I'll be the first to post an apology.
I've sent an inquiry and expect a response next week.

thorconstr · #73 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 01:19 PM

Gosh, I wonder what # test line CS is using, The chum seems to be working wonderfully!

CSX 4039 · #74 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuke427

Are you sure that this doesn't bother you a little bit? In some peoples eyes, this would make your car just a little less desirable as compared to the newer AC complimented Cobras. You pretty much owned the best reproduction of the Shelby Cobra that money could buy. Now there will be one that is not only in the registery, but built buy the same two original companies. As for bucking up the extra cash, isn't that what you did to purchase your SAI? Couldn't you have bought the same exact car not in the registery for less?
I'm not starting a conversation on whether or not your car is real, I'm just curious as to your negativity towards this proposed endeavor.

You know, in 2004, there are MANY ORIGINAL 1960's AC Shelby Cobras that sell for $500,000 that no longer have AC bodies. When I was shopping for a Cobra, I personally talked to Bruce Kimmins, who told me that he and his brother Colin had personally re-bodied about 100 original 1960's Cobras in their shop, Kimmins Coach Craft. I thought that was kinda cool. Additionally, whenever Kirkham sells a body alone on ebay, he advertizes it as "capable of re-skinning an original Cobra", although I don't have any numbers on how many, if any, original Cobras have had this treatment. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that McClusky, Panel Craft or Hi-Tech or others had there work gracing the shiney side of an "original AC" Cobra....
Just food for thought.

Dan Semko · #75 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 06:01 PM

Brent,
Did you buy Rasmussen's car?

REAL 1 · #76 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 08:39 PM

Brent: Is the $145K painted or unpainted? I assumed it was unpainted since you didn't mention paint.

I figured $10k for paint + $30K for engine and drive train. This assumes the $145K price includes all the other "options". Add another $2500 for dealer installation and prep my numbers come to $187.5K out the door before tax. If the foregoing are the numbers then no one is pulling a fast one at a sale price of $187K for a finished car.

When you say the "tooling is some of the original sets" what does that mean? What is a "set"? Are they bucks, parts of bucks, english wheels, jigs...what? Are any subs also involved in panel construction? What about Prices' rights? Before I'd plunk down that kind of money I would want some formal statement as to Prices' rights vis a vis all this so as to make sure my car and $$ don't get held up in some court injunction.

ToyCollector · #77 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 09:03 PM

$145K buys:

A kick-ass garage,
or
About 90% of a Ford GT at current street value
or
some over-priced musclecar at Barret-Jackson (had to throw that one in)
or
2 Kirkhams, one carb'd with Hi-Riser heads, one fuel injected
or
Rental property
or
a Ferrari F355 in MINT condition
or
a very nice plane
or
a very nice boat
or
whatever it is that you describe above.

Let me know where to spend the coinage if I have it. You are debating a microCOSM of the world that this applies to.

computerworks · #78 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REAL 1

... What about Prices' rights?

...that's Bob Barker's territory. eh?

Nuke427 · #79 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brett J. Bolte

You know, in 2004, there are MANY ORIGINAL 1960's AC Shelby Cobras that sell for $500,000 that no longer have AC bodies. When I was shopping for a Cobra, I personally talked to Bruce Kimmins, who told me that he and his brother Colin had personally re-bodied about 100 original 1960's Cobras in their shop, Kimmins Coach Craft. I thought that was kinda cool. Additionally, whenever Kirkham sells a body alone on ebay, he advertizes it as "capable of re-skinning an original Cobra", although I don't have any numbers on how many, if any, original Cobras have had this treatment. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that McClusky, Panel Craft or Hi-Tech or others had there work gracing the shiney side of an "original AC" Cobra....
Just food for thought.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what this has to do with my post you quoted earlier.
I simply stated that the new reproduction cars will be a touch more authentic than that of the current SAI Shelby's. Sure, if I had an original 60's chassis motor/trans drive train, cockpit, and all it needed was a body, it would be worth a lot more than a new SAI car. I'm not getting your point here.

Excaliber · #80 (**permalink**) 02-07-2004, 10:00 PM

No surprise here that some (alot?) of the 60's era Cobras have new bodies from various sources. It would be extra cool to have/see an original condition Cobra from that era. But like ANY "old car" original condition is extremely rare.

An 60's era Cobra with a Kimmons body (or whatever) is still a way cool car and I would still consider it right up there with the best examples of "original" cars.

Take a restore TO FAR and yeah, the lineage does start to get "complicated". I PREFER the look of some of the old "race Cobras" as they were back in the day! Some dents, hacked up fenders, and looking kind of gnarly. Looking "real"! It IS possible to over restore!

Ernie