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Old 07-15-2007, 08:16 PM
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Default Rod bolt question

The bottom end on my 351 Cleveland is low time and in really good shape. While it's out of the car and on the engine stand, I'd like to upgrade it's weak point, which is the stock rod bolts. Is there any possible way to upgrade the rod bolts without disassembling the whole engine? I can easily reach all of them with the oil pan off on the engine stand. I've had some tell me that to replace the bolts I have to have the big ends of the rods resized afterward, and some tell me that's not needed. If I take the rod/piston assemblies from the block, I might as well just rebuild the entire lower end, which I don't want to do. Anyone have any ideas or input on this? My choices are really to replace the rod bolts without disassembling the engine, or leave them as is. Rebuild is not an option - at least not just to replace the rod bolts.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:53 PM
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ARP's and some plastiguage. Go for it!
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:12 PM
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You should always resize the rod when you replace rod bolts. The new bolts will change the big end due to different material & torque loading. This is easy to see with a dial bore gauge before & after bolt removal.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:29 PM
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Mike is right, the higher quality bolts will come with an increase in tensile and clamp load changing the shape of the big end of the rod when installed.

When you look at the cost of the bolts and reconditioning the rods the purchase of new H-Beams will start to look very attractive.

I have attached a spreadsheet that is built from the model in the ARP catalog. It will allow you to determine the correct rod bolt dimensions <edit> and material <edit> based on rotating and reciprocating weights in your engine and the max rpm you wish to operate at along with the material the (ARP) fastner is made of. Its a pretty neat tool and takes a lot of the guess work out of the process.

Enjoy,

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File Type: zip MDL0060.zip (3.1 KB, 17 views)
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Last edited by eschaider; 07-15-2007 at 10:32 PM..
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaider
When you look at the cost of the bolts and reconditioning the rods the purchase of new H-Beams will start to look very attractive.

Ed
Ed,
I agree. What's involved in putting in the new rods? I know I have to disassemble the engine. At that point, I guess I'll have to balance everything and install new rod bearings. Do I have to pull the crank if it's not damaged? I'll have to put in new rings, I certainly can't reinstall the old rings. As long as the pistons are out, I should probably get the cylinders rehoned, which means removing the crank, which means .........jeez, I'm looking at a whole rebuild here. I guess I'll just leave it as is. Either that or try what Nick says - throw in the bolts and plastiguage it and see what happens. I guess I have to decide what has the better chance of going wrong - blowing up the engine due to stock bolts, or blowing it up because the rod ends were slightly out of round.
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:13 PM
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If you just do the bolts replace them with the same stuff. You're still supposed to do the big ends but at least you have a slightly better chance of sneaking through.

If you go to better quality fasteners you're in the deep stuff. If you reassemble with out rebuilding the big ends you're asking for trouble. If the engine has been recently freshened then you probasbly don't have to worry or do a lot of ring/cyclinder remanufacturing. If you are looking at 5000 - 10000 or more miles then you will need to hone the bores and replace the rings.

The temptation to cut corners when you do the build is powerful. Remember when you have to pull the engine to re-do what should have been done right the first time it is simultaneously more aggravating, expensive and difficult, not to mention the down time you experience for the car.

You live in the NE which means that unless you have a heated garage you're going to have to do all this during the warm weather when you would like to be driving the car. Unless you have a lot of worn out parts most of them should be reuseable. Consumables like rings and bearings just get replaced, its the smart thing to do.

Take the time to do it right the first time you'll like yourself and the car a lot more later.

Ed

<edit>
Apologies, I did not mean to be non responsive to the balancing question. Obvioiusly the correct thing to do is rebalance but ... If you look at a factory balance job you will discover they are not +/- 1 gram on their bob weights, they can be 50 grams or more different journal to journal. Not withstanding this apparent horrific imbalance your new Lexus idles amazingly smooth.

Get a good used O-Haus 2450 gram scale at a gun show and check your component weights if you disassemble. It'll give you a good picture of how Detroit originally put the engine together. This is not an endorsement for doing things the wrong way but maybe you do not need swiss watch precison if the engine is living below 5-6000 rpm especially if it is way below those numbers most of the time. Just something to think about.

BTW if you decide to do this, PM me and I'll send you a spreadsheet for calculating the bobweights necessary to balance all the stuff.

From your handle I suspect you are a Pilot so this next example will probably come home for you. If I look at a P-51 and do a premium rebuild on the engine I will hold reasonably close tolerances on the remanufactured engine pieces. If I rebuilt one of the GE or RR engines on a commercial airliner and built to the same tolerances I did the Merlin in the P-51 the jet engine would probably have a short service life. The engine and it probable service use in the Cobra are the same if you get my drift.

Ed
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Last edited by eschaider; 07-15-2007 at 11:30 PM..
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