Big Bucks

[RACER X #99]

Are we ever going to run out of guys with lots of excess cash to sell these copies of original cars to?
325 K for a copy of a Comp car that is not going to be competitive in todays racing world.
First off it will need a full cage to be allowed to run in anything but a vintage class and since it is only a copy(not original) it may not be allowed to run vintage.

Serious racers are not interested in racing Cobras today in any class other than the FFR spec. series and I think they go for a little less than 325K

Just who do these guys think are gonna buy those used replica Shelbys anyway? I know two guys who have CSX 4000's for sale and nobody is willing to give them anything close to what they have invested.

Maybe if you keep them for 40 years and pass them on to your kids they can sell them for the latest 50' wide screen virtual TV.

[REAL 1]

Well....aside from all the usual CSX knocks which as usual come from the CSX "have nots" all I will say is that the asking price is what it is. Finish Line said there are tremendous hours in each car, triangulated chasis, the best racing components, dry sump motor and its limited in production to 12 units with a Comp MSO etc..etc..I'm not advocating for it nor advocating against it. It is what it is. Some have been sold apparently to guys who see the value in the car. Others may not.

As far as the car not being eligble for vintage racing or whatever, who cares. Guys will use them as they want and likely most buyers will not put a $325,000.00 car on track in a serious way anyway. I'd use a FFR for that. I don't think anyone really believes these cars are competitive against todays race cars. Thats not why guys buy these cars. Get real.

There are plenty of cars that sell for more then similar or just like cars. Acuras sell for more then Hondas, Infinitis sell for more then Nissans, Lexus sells for more then Toyota, ERA sells for more then FFR, CSX's sell for more then Kirkhams (more then 2x's as much), originals sell for more then Continuations series etc...There is value there somewhere the buyers are seeing whenever a buyer lays out the difference.

Even within a brand some cars that are basically the same car sells for twice as much. As for example, a standard 997S is half the price of a GT3. Same basic car, just more toys and tweaks. Is there really twice the work in the car, twice the cost of production. Nope.

Standard aluminum CSX will now cost if done right about $170K approx. A special edition Comp CSX with special chasis and limited production is twice that number. Some see the value. Obviously the CSX "have nots" here won't cause after all its just a "replica" anyway

As far as Cranky's buddies not being able to sell their CSX for anything "close to their investment" they obviously haven't tried very hard or are looking in the wrong places. Whatever.

What I do know is that 2 buddies of mine (a Candy apple red CSX and a brushed aluminum CSX) recently sold their for over $145,000.00. The cars were each over 7 years old. Hmmm. Imagine that.

If Cranky's buddies have aluminum cars they should try again since the price of a new unfinished roller from SAI is now $115K up from $90K. For a car that "just isn't selling" the prices and values seem to keep going up. Weird!!!

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Well....aside from all the usual CSX knocks which as usual come from the CSX "have nots" all I will say is that the asking price is what it is. Finish Line said there are tremendous hours in each car, triangulated chasis, the best racing components, dry sump motor and its limited in production to 12 units with a Comp MSO etc..etc..I'm not advocating for it nor advocating against it. It is what it is. Some have been sold apparently to guys who see the value in the car. Others may not.

As far as the car not being eligble for vintage racing or whatever, who cares. Guys will use them as they want and likely most buyers will not put a $325,000.00 car on track in a serious way anyway. I'd use a FFR for that. I don't think anyone really believes these cars are competitive against todays race cars. Thats not why guys buy these cars. Get real.

There are plenty of cars that sell for more then similar or just like cars. Acuras sell for more then Hondas, Infinitis sell for more then Nissans, Lexus sells for more then Toyota, ERA sells for more then FFR, CSX's sell for more then Kirkhams (more then 2x's as much), originals sell for more then Continuations series etc...There is value there somewhere the buyers are seeing whenever a buyer lays out the difference.

Even within a brand some cars that are basically the same car sells for twice as much. As for example, a standard 997S is half the price of a GT3. Same basic car, just more toys and tweaks. Is there really twice the work in the car, twice the cost of production. Nope.

Standard aluminum CSX will now cost if done right about $170K approx. A special edition Comp CSX with special chasis and limited production is twice that number. Some see the value. Obviously the CSX "have nots" here won't cause after all its just a "replica" anyway

As far as Cranky's buddies not being able to sell their CSX for anything "close to their investment" they obviously haven't tried very hard or are looking in the wrong places. Whatever.

What I do know is that 2 buddies of mine (a Candy apple red CSX and a brushed aluminum CSX) recently sold their for over $145,000.00. The cars were each over 7 years old. Hmmm. Imagine that.

If Cranky's buddies have aluminum cars they should try again since the price of a new unfinished roller from SAI is now $115K up from $90K. For a car that "just isn't selling" the prices and values seem to keep going up. Weird!!!

Evan,

While I agree with many of the things you post on the boards, there are some things you post here that need a little correction as you may not be aware of the situation.

As for the "have nots" I would say they are not the only ones who think the above car is a little bit expensive--some of us "haves" think that way too. Even some "original" car owners think that way too... Regardless, that is Finish Line's business and I wish them success. Successful companies help this industry; bad ones hurt our industry. I wish them no ill. I would suggest non-ownership of a CSX car does not disqualify you from making constructive comments on CSX cars. You comment on the Palestinians all the time--and I am quite sure you are not one. As such I imagine you have not walked in their shoes very far. (This is NO comment on the problems in the Middle East, there is enough popcorn on this thread for now.)

Your comment of "CSX's sell for more then [sic] Kirkhams (more then 2x's as much)," then I would very much disagree. Our cars regularly sell for over 100-115K when they are "done right." Just ask Keith Craft. Our cars can be purchased cheaper if someone is willing to do a tremendous amount of work on their own. I don't think you can purchase a CSX car for much savings if you put it together yourself. It helps to compare apples to apples. True, one of our cars (Simoes') sold for 88K recently. That is the cheapest I have seen one of our cars go for in a long time. (There may be others; I don't know about them). Regardless, $88,000 x2 equals $176,000 which is quite a bit more than your "recently sold their for over $145,000.00." It is even more than your "Standard aluminum CSX will now cost if done right about $170K approx" car.

Your comment, "If Cranky's buddies have aluminum cars they should try again since the price of a new unfinished roller from SAI is now $115K up from $90K. For a car that "just isn't selling" the prices and values seem to keep going up. Weird!!! " is quite strange. As a supplier to Shelby of aluminum cars I can tell you they purchase very few cars from us--fewer all the time. This is no secret; it will be all published with dates and owners in the new registry. This is no bad comment on Shelby. On the contrary, lately, they have been quite reasonable to deal with from our perspective as a supplier to them. They order parts; we ship parts; they pay for parts...just like any normal business relationship. I just don't know why they purchase fewer and fewer aluminum cars from us and yet keep raising the price of their aluminum cars. Perhaps they are too busy selling Shelby Mustangs and their new Shelby Terlingua Mustangs (which I think are pretty cool). Anyway, how many aluminum Cobras they sell at whatever price is their business. No matter how much we would wish it, the original price does not reflect the "value" of a car--only the market can do that. Whatever they do is fine with me as we are selling much more than we can keep up with at the moment anyway.

David

[REAL 1]

David: Thank you for your post. I appreciate it. I wish all were as civilized in their posts and responses as you.

First, as you know I have great respect for you guys and Kirkham. Without you guys I would not have CSX4206. Thank you. You guys build an outstanding product and are first class. As Curt Scott once said you guys build the equivlent of the Faberge' egg of Cobras. In my mind the Kirkham qualifies as a legitmate Cobra. It is a Cobra in all respect except in technical legal name but now with its addition to the Registry, which I also posted I agreed with puts it over the top in my view.

As to my "have not" comment. Its no secret that there are a select few who routinely look to demean the Shelby series whenever possible. I view some if not much of that to be simply founded on the fact they don't have one. others may have different motives or perhaps truly feel that only the original series are REAL Cobras. But I'd be willing to be a large part of all that is based on sour grapes. Not all, granted but in great part, whether admitted or not.

My position and posts do not come from any "elitism". This accusation is just the same tired cover up to the old "one way" "double standard" here at ol' CC. Its ok for them to knock the CSX as in referring to it a "replica", fakey doo, copy of a cobra etc... but anytime I or an ower tries to defend the car by stating what the car is and officially recognized as we are now "elitist" I'm fully aware of what the Continuation series is and is not. I just reiterate the facts that some don't want to hear or recognize. I respect other cars I just think that respect is a two way street.

The comments from at least one now admitted and particularly nasty "have not" to my post was laced with the usual implicit CSX knocks. Thats fine. Its clear where it comes from and why.

If you go back and read my post, I clearly said I am neither advocating for the "big bucks" car or against it but merely pointed out that there are many cars that sell for more then like or similar cars for various reasons. One example used was the Shelby/Kirkham comparison. If I was slightly off on my numbers the cost differential is still subtanial when comparing new to new and used to used. If not 2x's then at least 1 1/2 x's. A new "done right Kirkham is $115K. A new "done right" Shelby $170K. That 43% more for the Shelby. Thats substantial. Comparing used figures $88K Kirkham to $145K Shelby puts the Shelby at 40% more. Again, substantial. My point. The buyer who pays the difference does so based on the perceived value difference for literally the same car.

Heck, you could also compare Kirkham values to ERAs, FFR and the like. Same basic shape car. Except for body material difference they are similar cars to ERA. The FFR chasis are similar to the original bird cage. Why is there such a differnce in price? Why do some people pay the difference? Why would most prefer a Kirkham to a FFR or an ERA if money were no object? Perceived value no doubt. Whatever the value to the person is i.e. they like "kirhams" or they like aluminum or they like the fact the Kirkham is the same car as the original in nearly every respect...whatever it is it is.

Is there nearly double the money in time, labor and equipment between a 997S and a GT3? Nope, I seriuosly doubt it. But try buying a GT3 for less then $140K especially an RS or RSR. Good luck. Basically the same car as the base 997S with racing goodies and tuned engine.

My point was that a limited edition CSX comp car is nearly twice the price of a standard CSX. You and I may think its overpriced but obviously there are buyers that see the value.

Heck, I think some SPFs, ERA and FFRs are overpriced and can't see spending that money when you could have a Kirkham for not much more. Wow! just wait and watch the @#$% gonna hit the fan now! Knocking replicas is taboo around here! This site needs the following sign posted "Knocking Shelbys only allowed here"

Many here were just taking the opproutunity on this "big buck" car to take more pot shots at the CSX series. I was trying to point out the car because of its special nature and limited build may have the value of $325K to certain people and its not that crazy or at least to not that crazy to them.

As to the Palestinians, no, I haven't walked in there shoes but I know enough about the situation to know they made there own problems and if they had any brains would have had a state back in 1948 and multiple times since then.

[David Kirkham]

Evan,

I appreciate you kind words. I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to me. I do see your points.

You know I respect and appreciate all you did for our company with the World Trade Center car we donated and for your positive comments towards our company over the years. I too think you have been treated harshly by some members over the years. If I recall correctly, the name calling starts with someone else. You have to admire someone who sticks up for what the believe and you certainly do. I would not take that away from you. My only point in posting on this thread was to keep the facts (I hate using that word) straight as some new guy could always come along and read your post and think our cars were only worth 1/2 of what a Shelby is worth when that is not the case. I don't fault you for "facts" as I know how difficult it can be to keep things straight.

Keep up the fight!

David


ps. I imagine most Palestinian shoes are stained with the blood of their husbands, brothers, and children. I believe the people themselves would choose peace--if their leaders would ever let them. Judging from those in power, I see dark days for some time ahead.

[REAL 1]

David: Thank you. I love Kirkhams. In my eyes they are to the present day SAI what AC was to SAI in the 60s. They are clearly part of the Cobra story and history as it has evolved.

Also its nice to know there are guys out there that understand what I've been saying.

You keep up the good work too!

As to the Palestinians, I hope you are wrong and they find a peaceful solution. I would love to see that.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Evan,

I appreciate you kind words. I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to me. I do see your points.

You know I respect and appreciate all you did for our company with the World Trade Center car we donated and for your positive comments towards our company over the years. I too think you have been treated harshly by some members over the years. If I recall correctly, the name calling starts with someone else. You have to admire someone who sticks up for what the believe and you certainly do.

* * *

Keep up the fight!

David


.

What are you...some kind of trouble-maker?

Since this thread has ended up being just another in a long line of needless discussions of the same old crap that never had a damn thing to do with one company's problematic past and inability to get things done, it has run it course...and will now slip under the waves.



P.S. Evan, one of these days, you'll understand: It's not the car...it's you.