FE vs. 460

NeoConMan · #1 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 02:56 PM

I'm a new guy here, and I apologize if this has already been beat to death here.

I'm wanting to build a Cobra, and I'm in the early stages of deciding which kit, which motor, which transmission, etc....
Anyhow, what are the relative merits of the installation of a 460 or FE in a Cobra?

I'm very familiar with both engines, and I know the FE is the historical/nostalgic favorite, but I would really prefer to simply build a moderate 460.

The crux of my question is this.
Which lends itself best to installation and maintenance in a Cobra body?

What are the shortcomings for access to each ones vitals?
I know the FE is heavier, but what is the real difference in weight?
What problems are there with hood clearance?
Suspension/steering access?

Anyhow, you get the idea.
I'm eager to learn as much about them as I can before I spend the $$$$ on one.

ENTDOC · #2 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 03:13 PM

to me the 460 class motor makes the least sense of any of the more popular engines. they are heavy , wide and non original. The FE is top dog in most cobra circles, mostly due to its originality factor and it just looks right in the cobra bay. It too has shortcomings, heavy, expensive, somewhat bulky. I would choose an FE first, then a 351 based second, 302 next and 460 last. this is not to say a 460 is a bad motor, I just do not think it best for a cobra.

NeoConMan · #3 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 03:16 PM

How much wider is a 460?
I didn't think there was much difference.
Of course, my frame of reference was mostly Ford trucks.
Plenty of room there....

I guess I could be talked into building an FE, but I want to fully discount the 460 first.

ENTDOC · #4 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 03:43 PM

it is not that it is too wide, it is just wider than an FE which is already big. there are plenty of cobra replicas with 460 motors. it sounds like that is what you really want to do, and that is ok, I just think there are better choices.

NeoConMan · #5 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 03:51 PM

Yes, please understand I would forsake the 460 without a second thought if there are good reasons for it.

Looking at the prices of engine builds, the FE's always seemed to require so much work or all aftermarket parts and that means $$$$.
I understand the FE is "supposed" to be in a Cobra, I'm just trying to get info.

The 460 would likely be much less expensive to get what I want out of it, I could use old factory heads, block and crank with the typical aftermarket parts for a moderate build up.
But if it presents any difficulties the FE would not, that's what I want to hear about.

Like I said, I know a thing or two about the motors.
It's the car I'm new with.

ENTDOC · #6 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 04:15 PM

keep in mind that a cobra weighs from 2200 - 2700 lbs, so having a 700 lb lump in the front will affect handling greatly. A 450 hp 408 weighing 200 lbs less than a 460 makes a lot of sense in these cars and can be done fairly cheaply.

ZOERA-SC7XX · #7 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 04:28 PM

The 460 based engine is 50% cheaper to build than a similar-power FE. It is also almost 50% heavier. If cost is paramount, go with the 460. If keeping with the spirit of the Cobra concept means anything to you, then go with an FE. Even a 390 built up properly will give you plenty of street horsepower and torque.

NeoConMan · #8 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZOERA-SC7XX

The 460 based engine is .... also almost 50% heavier.

I've always heard the opposite.
I have no factual basis for it, I simply always believed the FE was heavier.
Maybe it was relative to horsepower, in the seventies Ford made a marked difference in their 1/2 ton trucks when the 460 went in.
1976 I think?
The older 390/400M motors in all our company trucks were turds by comparison.
I was around a few older LTD's and such that had the old 390 or 428, but they were sluggish compared to the Lincolns and Mercurys we had with the 460.
Of course, nostalgia warps reality but I always had a better opinion of the 460.
Later, I knew several guys who built 460s for drag racing.
The 390/428 along with the 351 Cleveland motors all but disappeared from the drag racing world by the early nineties, unless they were in a numbers-correct car of some sort.
If a 460 would fit, that's what went in it.

Hmmm....

Okay, so maybe all the FE guys are onto something!
Dear God, don't let me succumb to Side-Oiler 427 fever!

Thanks!
This is why I'm here.

patrickt · #9 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoConMan

I have no factual basis for it, I simply always believed the FE was heavier.

Bone stock, they are within 10 lbs. or so of one another, with the 460 being lighter. BUT, anyone that builds an FE now-a-days for a Cobra shaves a lot of weight off with just an aluminum intake, heads, water pump, etc. My FE is within 50 lbs. of an original 289 and it still has an iron block.

Carefully constructed aftermarket aluminum block FE engines will get you down in to small block numbers.

EDIT -- Here's a chart of various engine weights: http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html

FUNFER2 · #10 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 05:27 PM

If you want a based 460 +, check out Keith Craft's 514. 700 HP for under $13,000. Wow.

Check out his site, as he has many configurations to suit your needs, wither it's a small or big blk.

Ford Racing has a 514 cu. 630 HP for under 70k.

Kevin

diegokid · #11 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 05:59 PM

I too almost went with a Bowtie and until there are several thousand miles on the FE I went with I'm keeping my fingers crossed since I have NEVER had a Ford product that held up as good as my Chevy stuff. As far as weight goes here are some numbers I pulled from a Ford forum. The Fe is consederably lighter when you goe with the Alum intake and heads. I couldn't believe the weight of just the cast iron intake when I started buying junkyard motors for this project.

PS: You know that Chevy is making a 427 again don't you? If you used it all the 427 badges would be correct!

ENGINE FAMILY WEIGHT (LBS) WIDTH LENGTH HEIGHT
289/302 Windsor 460 24 29 27.5
302 Boss "Clevor" 500 24.5 29 28.5
351W Windsor 525 25 29 29
351C 335 (Cleveland) 550 25.5 29 29
351M/400 335 (Modified) 575 26 29 29
332-428 (ex.SOHC) FE 625 27 32 29
427 SOHC FE 680 32 34 30
429/460 720 27 34 29
429 Boss 385 635 30 34 30

NeoConMan · #12 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

My FE is within 50 lbs. of an original 289 and it still has an iron block. Carefully constructed aftermarket aluminum block FE engines will get you down in to small block numbers.

Dayum!!!
There's alot of iron in those pieces fer sure.
What about cost?

I know, I know....
IF I was worried about money I wouldn't be hot-rodding, motorcycling, flying or collecting guns, guitars etc...

Aluminum intake is a given, water pump is cool, but aluminum heads still scare me.
I know, there are millions of them out there now doing fantastic service.
Old habits die hard.

Within 50 pounds you say?
An old friend of mine in Texas is a Ford V8 guru, maybe I'll be picking his brain a little more...

Keep the info coming, you guys ROCK!

ZOERA-SC7XX · #13 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 07:18 PM

No one would know the difference between a 390 and a 428. External dimensions are the same.

NeoConMan · #14 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZOERA-SC7XX

No one would know the difference between a 390 and a 428.

Patrick T is right, I would know so it's gotta be a 428 - or more.
It's the principle of the thing....

I just got off the phone with my buddy in Texas, the old Ford V8 guru.
He agrees with all of you here.
FE motor.

Says it will have aluminum heads, because iron FE heads worth a damn are impossible to find.
Add a stupid price for a good pair to all that extra weight, aluminum is the obvious choice.
If I built a 460 with aluminum heads, the price would start getting nutty on it as well.
Parts availability is a wash according to him, since everything on the motor will be aftermarket anyhow.

I'm thinking 9" axle because a good one will live thru anything.
Once I decide on what brakes and suspension to use, get the axle modified for discs to suit.

Transmissions?
Tremec 500 or 600?
Here's another sticking point.

I couldn't care less about close ratios, I want plenty of spread in the gears.
A crazy low first/reverse gear is a must if the wife is gonna drive it, I'll choose the rear end ratio to put top gear where I want it.

Oh, so many choices....

Danr55 · #15 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 07:28 PM

If it were be building all over again, I'd start with a solid 351C for a 427 style car or small block 289 and build an FIA car.

fostereast · #16 (**permalink**) 10-17-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danr55

If it were be building all over again, I'd start with a solid 351C for a 427 style car or small block 289 and build an FIA car.

Why would you do that?

My project is taking way too long to get off the ground, and I have two 427 blocks and lots of parts, but I have been thinking that for the driving I will probably do, a 390 or a 289 might be more fun overall.

FUNFER2 · #17 (**permalink**) 10-17-2008, 07:10 PM

Wanna hear a engine that really turns my crank. If you have good speakers, sounds awesome. Guess it should, for $60,000.

Kevin

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Shelb...rkparms=72:727

Randy Rosenberg · #18 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 08:50 PM

Just a quick point of reference...

The 460 (535hp) in my SPF is from the 1999 Ford Motorsports catalogue, and with 21k+ miles on her, she still runs great. I had her corner weighed a month ago or so, and she's 47% front and 53% rear with my butt in the driver's seat and 3/4's tank of fuel.

NeoConMan · #19 (**permalink**) 10-12-2008, 09:12 PM

(Heavy sigh.....)

Well, I think I'm gonna go FE.
Who knows? It's a ways down the road for me.

Yeah FF2, that's good advice on determining axle width.
I'm not gonna go crazy with tires either, with insane width and no aspect ratio.

I suppose I need to look at a few cars and decide just how much tire looks appropriate stuffed in the wheel wells. I hate rubs.

I figure a strong motor will overwhelm any tire I put on it, so I might as well simply go with what looks and fits the best.
I understand many big brakes require a 17" wheel, so maybe that much is a given.

Fitz · #20 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 11:06 PM

Check my gallery out. Picture of 460 before blowing up. Nice looking in the engine bay. Now I have 408 and runs great and looks good with some extra Levy goodies. Levy built me 460 from scratch and then the 408 in this car and a 347 in my first car.