I have seen an early Brian Angliss car in my neighborhood. It has some rather interesting details. It has a 427 style body, but the gas filler cap is FIA style and has really short side pipes. I think there were some other details that were not original, but I only saw the car twice for short periods of time.

Regarding CSX 30XX cars from AC run by Brian Angliss:
My records do not show any Angliss 30601 nor any 3060, as of just before he "sold" AC (actually, the gangsters from the accountancy employed as agency for the bancrupcy pushed him out the door, quite ungraciously and foolishly).

There remains the potential for various "creative" entries during the period of A C Cars Group Limited operations under the notorious Lubinski Buttinski. Documents do exist, such as letters of "assurance", though i have not seen them personally; which i understand are signed by L. Recall that it would be illegal in GB for ACCG to issue any document on ACC stationary or legal documents. ACCG only purchased the assets, not either the going concern or the liabilities of ACC. But, i might expect to see an ACC (Malta) document, dated after the close of ACC (GB) and perhaps even after the close of ACCG (GB).

There were only the 3 continuation cars 3056, 3057 and 3058, spread over from 1992 to 1995. There was another, 3070 which was reportedly shoved under an original data plate, but there is extant a 3070 that has been continuously owned since the early 90's, so perhaps i was mis-informed about that number.

3056 is in England, owned by a fellow who also now owns the last 289 AC COBRA, 3057 is in Germany owned by a charming racer's wife and 3058 is in Detroit getting its first engine & tranny (top-loader) installation with the great Dave Wagner in Northville, IL. Genuine NOS. Never run. Strictly a race car, see my pics (no engine in photos). We never wanted 3058 finished as a street SC, but only as a racer.

Interestingly, during the MKIV days, it appears that some serialized MKIV's were in reality MKIII racers and streeters. That is, they were built to specs at variance with the British regulations and shipped out of country (though a few may have slipped back in, i suppose, heh, heh.) i cannot track or identify them. Brian was always really good about building what you wanted. But, he wouldn't build something too stupid and probably ignored some dumb offers.

Attached is pic from last fall at Dave's. Note no pipe holes in lower fender. Note aly 1/2 tonneau.

V, is the broomstick hood prop SCCA legal? :D

S, hi, given the season, it is a "real" broomstick element, but CS would not sign it. i used to use it on SCCA tech inspectors to facilitate stickering for events. i am still FAA low altitude approved for single stick events.

CSX 3056, 3057 and 3058 are "completion Cobras" NOT continuation Cobras.

4000 series are continuation Cobras

Takes care.

NOT continuations?
 

1. You don't have to SHOUT.
2. Explain the difference to me, regarding that its particular source was AC Cars, Limited (the original source of very nearly all Cobra cars from the beginning of time), whilst owned and operated by Brian Angliss and authorized by FORD Motor Company to call them Cobras...
3. You may have missed the essential AC Cars Limited serial number. This is an SC, in the line of SC's, not a new line of numbers, not a changed design, part of the set of 100 that was intended to be built for homologation purposes (if we wish to believe that intent; which, could they have been sold (very unlikely indeed), might have happened as "promised".
4. Or, have i answered my own question?
5. Which would i rather have and why? The chassis certainly was not built in the day, but laid down around 1992 or so.

thx

Evan,

I think he is talking about cars built by AC with those serial numbers, not the Shelby authorized "completion" Cobras. Perhaps you would prefer that he did not use the terms completion or continuation to describe the AC built cars with those numbers. :JEKYLHYDE

In case someone wishes to be on the same page as What'sa, go to page 810 of the new Registry. ;)

tHiS is AlL SO CONFusinG to mE :JEKYLHYDE

I didn't realize WhatsaCobra was speaking about the AC derivatives. I didn't realize that beyond the original 60's cars AC or AutoKraft was authorized to call or title their cars as "Cobras" continuation or otherwise and its my understanding they were not allowed.

If incorrect could someone please enlighten me on this???

Thank you.

Takes care.

Shelby sold the Cobra name to Ford in the late 60's or early 70's.

At some point in the past, AC was partially owned by Brian Angliss and Ford. Since Ford owns the Cobra trademark, they could use it on anything that they wanted to. I believe that the car that we call the AC MK IV over here in the states was sold as the AC Cobra in Europe with Ford's blessing. Why they chose to call it the AC MK IV in the states is unknown to me.

After Ford sold their interest in AC cars, I suspect that AC could no longer use the Cobra name. Thus we have such memorable names like AC Super Blower.

At some point Shelby sued Ford to get the Cobra name back. The result of that law suit is something like Shelby can use the Cobra name on those cars that he builds that look like the cars he built in the 60's that were called Cobras. Shelby was not allowed to say use the name Cobra on the car that was eventually named the Shelby Series 1. And further if you are a manufacturer of a Cobra replica, you better not use the name Cobra without a license from Shelby unless you want Shelby and Ford to jointly sue you.

So that leads to another important question - will the straight (not AC-DC) trollops on the streets of London who advertise their services using the aforementioned nomenclature be sued by AC? :confused:

Ned,

That all depends on whether they have the extra side reflectors, tail light configuration and funky gauge clustering on their dashboards.

continuation series........ AKA....BS......

Some might say the whole continuation/completion/is-it-real thing is all BS.:LOL: Not me, mind you; I happen to love to read the "mine's real and yours ain't threads." I suppose the only way you can't argue it's real is if you don't have it any more...;)

What ever you think of the pedigree of Completition and Continuation series cars, it is a logical way to track them and differentiate between the three important groups.

i didn't realize...
 

Really: Perhaps not. Perhaps not the only thing, either. But, as my Pittsburgh friends are wont to say, "...be that as it may...", it isn't clear why you choose the word "derivatives". My most recent association with that name is the fraudulent debt/asset instruments found in the current real estate collapse. Naturally, i think the word is at best, inappropriate and at worse, intendedly derisive.

AC Cars Limited, from 1962(3?) were exclusively licensed by FORD Motor Company to build and sell Cobras, outside of North America. Much later, Angliss formed Autokraft to fabricate components (and eventually full autos) for ACC's subsequent distribution. He was a supplier and very close to the Herlocks because of his performance, price and attitudes about quality and reliability. Eventually, he bot ACC with FORD and a few minor partners (the detail of which escapes me at the moment). He moved the entire factory from Thames Ditton to a large new facility located inside the old Brooklands race-track grounds, perhaps 20 miles south of London Heathrow.

Eventually, FORD tried to stop Brian from building and selling, by putting ACC out of business. Brian estopped FORD from their nefarious behavior (nothing either personal or new there at FORD) via the courts. In the end, Angliss owned all ACC with a few minor partners, at least one of which he bought out either before or after the suit with FORD.

While Shelby went to Africa, etc, AC Cars Limited continued to build Cobras, though not all were labeled as a Cobra. See Trevor Legates wonderful new Cobra book for lots of details and pictures. But, ACC had the rights to use the name, without doubt. After Angliss acquired ACC, he envisioned a more legal Cobra for the 1980's regulatory environment, which he exported to the US FORD dealers as the MKIV. Recall that ACC was not licensed to sell Cobras in N. America, but the FORD dealers certainly could.

In the early nineties, CS et al "discovered" a large set of "left over chassis" from AC Cars Limited, in order to continue to sell "original" or "real" Cobras with chassis from the original construction run. Of course, this story wasn't true, as we all know. Someone else can explain the gory details as they see fit.

Angliss sued CS/SAI etc. for that misrepresentation that they were from AC Cars Limited, as part of the original lot of parts. CS "numbered" them in the sequence of the 427 SC's (CSX 30XX), though they were never fabricated in England or anywhere else by ACC. Angliss and CS agreed, with suitable weasel-words, that ACC did not make those chassis, but also that the Messiah himself did conceive of the Cobra, etc, etc.

Subsequently, Angliss decided to build himself (and a few friends) a very few of the original SC cars, starting in 1992, ending in 1995 (see prior entries). The motivation, while not really significant, was based on ROI, opportunity, welcome market (though it was then softening a wee dram), pride and as something of a victory lap over CS.

Dave Wagner, then with his personal Detroit shop, employed by FORD as the customer service contact for AC to FORD (among other significant assignments at FORD, particularly facilitating US DOT approval of the MKIV), bot a series run of MKIII's from Brian on an as-available basis, perhaps something just over 7 cars or so, but it is in the SAAC book. Because of his career employment with FORD, Dave was "asked" to change the number sequence from the ACC series to something that CS didn't want to use. No problem. They are beautiful cars all, completed mostly by Dave and have sold quite expensively from time to time. David does the completion quite accurately, most would say rather perfectly; so they are very difficult to differentiate from the originals, though David can easily do so, i believe.

Upon purchase of the assets of ACC, Lubinsky (ACCG) did not honor the deal previously established by Angliss with David. This was only ONE of L's errors. His next biggest was not to purchase all of ACC, except the unknown liabilities. As a result of only buying the assets on the books, ACCG Limited (the "new" AC) lost the grandfather rights to production British Type approval. This error now required that all new production cars pass current type approvals, simply not possible for any sort of Cobra-based vehicle for many technical reasons, ranging from emissions, to safety and appearance.

Further, ACCG also received a cease and desist order from FORD not to use the moniker Cobra, since there was no agreement with FORD to transfer those rights to any other legal entity. By closing down ACC, L did FORD a favor that it could not accomplish with the previous court suit(s).
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Anyone further in the know, please correct any of my errors or mistaken views at their leisure.

uh...I don't think Ned was talking about cars. ;)

"So that leads to another important question - will the straight (not AC-DC) trollops on the streets of London who advertise their services using the aforementioned nomenclature be sued by AC?"

And what make you think that my post had anything to do with cars? I enjoy looking at tail light configurations just like anyone else. ;)

And yet Shelby originally owned the Cobra trademark, which he later sold to Ford. So how is it that Ford could have licensed AC to sell Cobras at that time?

AC did sell the MK II COB and COX cars as Cobras. If Shelby owned the trademark, I assume Shelby would have agreed to letting those cars be called Cobras, not Ford.

And when AC sold the MK III cars with 289 engines, I believe they sold them with a name like AC Sports, not AC Cobras. Perhaps by that point AC was no longer allowed to use the Cobra name?

It seems to me that AC did not use the Cobra again name until the advent of the AC MK IV, which had Ford involvement, at a point in time that Ford owned the Cobra trademark.

Perhaps AC did not have the continuous right to the Cobra name from the 60's up until Alan got involved as you suggest.

Good question.

Right from the git go, ACC had the right to build and sell AC Cobras outside N.A.. They did so from time to time. (Recall that they later built their own version of the Daytona, which was a winner.) But the maximum effort was required to fit the huge mfg schedule required by SAI. For a bespoke hand-crafted auto, this was a bloody bunch of cars. Despite all the CS claims, the cars were all designed and fabricated by ACC, with some engineering input from FORD, from CS, and from customers/teams racing the cars, particularly Phil Remmington at Shelby's. It was part of the mfg agreement with FORD, who also guaranteed payment of all the cars shipped to SAI. In fact, if i recall, the invoices were sent to FORD for payment, not only to SAI.

This was all long before Angliss.

While the Hurlocks liked the business with CS, they insisted on FORD guarantees of payment, after the first test vehicles. Despite CS's occasional dis-respectful and ignorant statements about the AC people (once he no longer needed their good name), the Hurlocks insisted on getting paid. Smart move, i'd say.

So, since Angliss bot ACC as a going concern, all of the contracts, rights and liabilities were included. Further, FORD was directly a partner in the purchase; though subsequently they had a falling out over various issues. But, the contracts were honored.

i am sure L was rather grieved when he learned that he lost the moniker from FORD and the Type Certificates from the British federalies. Had he taken the time to personally speak with Angliss, which he "neglected" to do, he might have been forewarned. i knew it would be very likely and would not tell him in the very brief conversations i had with L. i sided with Angliss, of course. Nor did Dave and i ever speak about it together.

But, to be more complete, you must recall that the actual owner was Pride Automotive Corp, a Delaware public company listed on the stock exchange in the USA. Perhaps it was not possible to establish sufficient protection for PAC if they purchased ACC whole.

Seems to me like they could establish sufficient protection through the use of careful structures, contracts and excess lines insurance. The loss of those grandfather certificates was a major loss to the enterprise, critical to their continued success.

Like Angliss before them, they bet the farm on the new ACE, for which Angliss could not establish a suitable engine from FORD on time and price. (A much longer story to be found in Legate's wonderful book.) L was not able to acquire a suitable engine either; but by the time L has a few sensible ideas, rather than wet dreams, he was out of money, traction, credit, airspeed, altitude and ideas, all at the same time.

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For aviation buffs that want to see this demonstrated, but solved JIT:
http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html
Watch to the end.