Liability at the track questions

[rbray]

I have attended several Drivers education days on racetracks and I have questions regarding my liabiliy in case of an accident.
First off if I crunch my car I fully expect that I will be on my own without help from my insurance company. What I am conserned about is being sued if I am envolved in an accident with another car.
Perhaps these events should be called race schools instead of drivers education days.
Any thoughts?

[Rich]

My ex-brother-in-law totalled his car during a PCA DE event and claimed it on his insurance. They paid, canceled him, and the only type of coverage he could get for the next 3 years was whatever convicted DUI offenders have. It was insanely expensive and worked out that it would have been cheaper to eat the cost of the Porsche.

My point is, don't count on your insurance to cover you or someone else in case of an accident. You probably sign a waiver before you hit the track that states how dangerous a place race tracks are and you are responsible for your own actions.

If there's an incident, expect to hear (or say), "Sorry dude, that's driver education".

Rich

[Excaliber]

Of course anybody can sue for just about any reason, sometime it is truly ridiculous.

Being sued by another race driver for a collision during a race? Truly ridiculous. UNLESS it could be demonstrated you were GROSSLY negligent. Like running into his car AFTER the race on purpose or something of that nature. Other than that it would be a "raceing incident" and ALL drivers have to assume that risk.

Rich, I'm surprised the insurance paid out for the Porsche at all. His policy must have been missing the typical "fine print" which declares no coverage for "timed events", "races", etc.

Ernie

[Rich]

Ernie,

The agent was a life-long friend. I don't know if they're still speaking or not.

Rich

[Excaliber]

OH,,,,yeah, I know that one. Long time friend, a couple of deals went bad, money got in the way. Sometimes,,,,,,, life sucks.

Ernie

[klayfish]

Roger,
Yes, it is pretty safe to assume that you will be on your own. The vast majority of policies have exclusions for any type of racing or "speed" event. Read your policy carefully. Some don't have that. Generally, at an open track event, it shouldn't be an issue, but it is something to keep in mind.

Also, don't assume that because you are friends with your agent, that he or she can bail you out. Agents have nothing to do with claims. They do NOT make the decision on whether or not a claim gets paid. They can call the claims handler, but ultimately, they are totally out of the loop. Be careful.

Steve

[Kputz]

What you may not realize is, many race cars are insured too. Mine is, and it's the ony way the thing is covered if it comes off the trailor during hauling, or is consumed in a garage fire. Check your homeowners insurance if you garage an unlicensed car, itmost likely isn't covered if consumed in a fire or collapse. It obviously isn't covered for on-track use, but it's the liability issue you want covered.
Give your agent a jingle and ask about a specialty binder. Different companies offer different binders, even for non competition use, which is what most "open track" events are. It might be pricey for just a day's outing, but then again, may pay to have the Porsche fixed. In any event, it's the liability issue you should be concerned with.
Fixing a car just isn't an issue with a race car, every builder realizes the day he finishes his car that he must be willing to push it off a cliff and walk away. Crashes are only an issue with "play racers" at open events.

[RACER X #99]

Most tracks require that the group renting the track for the event be covered by a liability insurance policy. This does not cover damage to anybodys car while on the track. If you are concerned about damage to your car I suggest you either rent a racer for the day or find some other hobby. Cars do get damaged at driving schools and Open track events. Not as often as street driving but stuff happens. Almost everybody I know who runs Open track has sustained some kind of damage over the years. Some damage is minor and some require long visits to the body shop. If you are serious about Open track you are going to take some off track excursions. If you never have gone off track you ain't going fast enough.

They're is a reason most are called High performance driving schools and not race schools.

RD

[rbray]

Thanks for all the replies.
My concern is not for my car. I accept 100% of the risk for taking my car onto a race track.
My concern is my liability that I might cause to someone elses car at a "Drivers Education" event. The last event I attended required signing a waiver stating that the participants had liability coverage in effect.
I agree that a DE is not real racing, but the intent is to learn how to driver ones car to the limit. So in my mind everyone is on there own as far as damages go. If by some unfortunate occurance I get tangled up with a 911 twin turbo I would hope that I would not be held responsible for repairing both cars.

[rbray]

BTW. I am a beginner to high performance driving. I am leaving my Cobra at home and running my '91 Miata until I get more experience. I am hoping to get into some real racing in a few years, most likely Spec Miata.

[Kputz]

Do that, and you will suddenly realize just how different racing is from an open event. Race a year or two and you will realize why most racers are horrified at even the thought of attending an open event.

[coyled]

Racer x, I guess I am not going fast enough yet since I have not gone off. Mostly parade laps for me. Kputz, Horrified of what? Scott

[mikiec]

Scott..

I've seen your parade laps..

Mike

[RACER X #99]

Scott,
With all the Open track events you do I find it hard to beleive you haven't gone off at least one time. How are you gonna find out just how fast you can corner without going too fast? Even the best pro drivers in the world do some agricultural racing.

Professor X

[Kputz]

Horrified for my life. The last one I was at was this summer at a Mustang SV Club, all fast cars, some said they even had raced, me there scrubbing tires. At the "drivers meeting" some wizard arose and asked if there was only passing allowed on the left, and only after a wave like "last time". Everyone agreed. I was dumbfounded. Sure enough, some guy pulls on me on the straight, I run out to the right, he pulls to my rear quarter, and stays there. I went around and exited the track. He comes up to me after the session angry and explains to me I'm supposed to wave. I politely explain to him with much profanity that I'm strapped into my seat and have a window net, and couldn't get my fecking hand out the window if I tried. And besides, most race tracks have 5 times the right turns than left turns, and if you allow passing on the RIGHT the passer can easily see you wave through the rear window AND is naturally set up on the inside for the next turn, most likely a left, and that 90% of the passing done in a race is done on the INSIDE (read left here). It's done that way because its SAFER that way. He looks dumbstruck. I sigh.
In the course of that one afternoon I saw no less than 10 offs, some rather exciting. I got tired of watching puds that have no clue how to run the twisties, but think they're fast because they can go like hell down the straights. I was scrubbing tires on a Miata and there wasn't one guy that I couldn't cover up in the twisties.
Racing is simpler, if only because you can trust the other guy more often than not. You can cover his bumper or his door and you know he isn't going to do something stupid, is going to keep his line, whether there are just two of you going through the corner, or many going, side to side. At open events, I'm willing to wager there aren't 5 guys out of 50 that know anything at all about racing, or going fast for that matter, but nearly every one is driving faster on questionable tires than he has any ability to do.
At the start of a race, whether in the american sedan or the spec miata, you are bumper to bumper and door to door, through at least the first three turns (in the case of the miata through the first entire lap more likely), and rarely does anything happen aside from the occasional rub. At an open event, unless you give the morons a wide berth, you could well be scrapping your ride......or worse. I'd rather have pins stuck in my eyes than attend one.

[RACER X #99]

Kputz,
You certainly are a lucky guy to be born with the natural ability to drive a race car. Most who have never been on a track have to learn someplace and most Open Track events are tied into a performance driving school. If somebody is putting inexperienced drivers on the track with Experts such as yourself then shame on them for running a dangerous event.
None of the schools that I instruct with allow beginners on the track with experienced racers. As an experienced racer yourself you should know better than to be out there with beginners.

Most of us who started with our first schools in the beginner group were intimidated with the track itself not to mention having other cars around us. Most will progress as time goes by and will have the pleasure of blowing those little spec. racers into the weeds.

Give the newbies a break.

[PatBuckley]

Kputz -

Cranky is right - guys who actually have taken a green in real competition should not be anywhere NEAR an Open Track event.

The main reason I wouldn't be caught dead doing an open track is the fact that there would be such varying skill levels out there -

Also, in a real race the cars are all prepared to about the same level and then you get to qualify which means that you would be running with people who qualified next to you - you all brake at about the same time and corner at about the same speed. It is only when you start lapping slower cars that it gets dicey....

In an open track deal I have seen some really fast cars that are mixed in with some real duds....and I wince at the closing rates.

By the way - what does on track insurance cost nowdays? It used to be 10% of the value of the car....per race.

[Excaliber]

I can see your point about "open track" days. Sometimes we have "invitation only" race days, everybody knows everybody else. Were all running HARD, but you KNOW what the other guy is going to do.

I love an "open track" day too, but I'm definitely more "worried" during those events and don't drive it to the "max".

Ernie

[Tom T.]

My experience with NorCal Shelby has been very good. The club runs three to four run groups, and most people put themselves in the right one. When they don't, they often get moved. Open track can be a blast when you have people who respect one another and know that part of the price of admission to these events is not to be a jerk. I've run on and off with this club for six or seven years now and have never seen any paint traded, ever. Most people on track are considerate, watch the mirrors, and do point bys when possible. It's all about the tone an organization sets, and whether the organization acts consistently over the years. At the same time, I am starting to have impure thoughts about actually starting to get into racing, but there's no way I could ever afford to run the Z06. That spec Miata stuff looks like one hell of a lot of fun, and within the means of ordinary mortals like myself. D class sports racing looks like it can be absolutely insane, but I think I'm too old, too fat, and too biased against bike-engined cars to tackle that now. Lotto, lotto, lotto....

TT

[Kputz]

X: You made my point eloquently. I was at the open even precisely because it was a cheap way for me to scrub tires and set up the suspension. No "racing" is allowed, passing done only on the straights. As far as being "born" with ability, I don't have all that much, but I was born with sense. Advertise track time, allow people with questionable ability, in cars not teched, let alone properly prepared, some much faster than others (due to car or driver willingness), and stand by and watch a dozen or so offs during an afternoon, strikes me as a bit like refusing to use a trigger lock on an accessable handgun. Testosterone is a funny thing, and left unchecked will almost always get a guy in trouble. I'd just prefer to be absent when the trouble eventually presents itself, and it eventually will. Your call. Go to as many as you wish. We were talking about liability here, for the car, and also personal liability. It's always faintly amazed me that nobody's widow has yet successfully sued the gold teeth from organizers, participants and/or track owners over the results of such activities. Particularly with the "Run & Gun" types, which are advertised, either explicitly or tacitly as an event to "let it go and see what it'll do". A third year law student could make a case that might keep you in court over a year and cost you $20K (even if you win). Like I say, you pays yer dough and you takes yer chances. When the subject of liability comes up, you should know all the issues. This one is mine.