New toy

[cobish]

[quote=dave from mesa;1150005]Mikie, Mikie, Mikie. Hopefully you will shoot off a bench. 2" @ 50 yds with open sights ain't no easy feat.

Interesting article for all you marksmen


To start out, I want to make a few clarifications...

First off, I would define a "headshot" as a reliable hit (EVERY TIME) on a 5-6" target at whatever given range you're talking about. A "headshot" proposition is REALLY a "brain shot", so we're talking about a 6" x 6" square on the front of the forehead, or a 6" x 6" square over the temple area.

Secondly, without trying to be a jerk and correct your terminology, I assume by "sniper rifle", you're refering to a mobile weapon system like the M-24 (Marine) or 40x (Army) that the military issues to Snipers/sharpshooters/Designated Marksmen, or a civilian equivalent, like the Remington 700. Sniper rifles are both accurate as well as mobile, which can be duplicated by, or EXCEEDED by civilian weapons available. So whether it's owned by, issued to, or held by a "military sniper" is irrelevant... When you say "sniper rifle", it's understood to mean a .30caliber accurized bolt action rifle.

So those 2 things locked down, then my answer is that a trained marksman should be able to reliably deliver a "headshot" with a "sniper rifle equivalent" to 1,000-1,200yrds.

Trained marksmen using precision equipment, with accurate and current environmental information should be able to deliver a 1/2MOA hit (i.e. 1/2" at 100yrds, or 5" at 1,000yrds) or better. A 5-6" head shot target would be 1/2MOA at 1,000-1,200yrds, which would be pressing the range of the "normal, exceptionally trained shooter".

There are, of course, legendary shots that have been made by military snipers that far exceed this expectation, but those are the exception, not the rule. In general, a 1/2MOA long range shooter is exceptional, so delivering, for example, a headshot at 2,000yrds (0.3MOA) is absolutely possible, but absolutely PHENOMENAL.

That said, I want to comment on Jack of all Trade's post. I don't normally do this, but I'm calling bullsh*t...

Jack of all trades claims he can make 12" shots at 350yrds (320m) with a Marlin 925R .22lr and a Barska 4-32x44mm scope. No, with the right equipment and training, this shot isn't impossible, but with his equipment and his apparent knowledge, I'd say NO, HE IS NOT CAPABLE OF IT.

First off, the rifle: The Marlin 925R is a fine weapon, but it is NOT a precision rifle, nor can it be made to be. Besides recrowning the muzzle, tuning the trigger, bedding the action, and free floating the barre, there isn't much you can do to accurize the 925. Even those changes (which would cost as much as the rifle) would not turn the modest 925R into a precision rifle. It's a light barreled budget rifle, NOT a precision weapon. The 925R in my experience will shoot between 1-1.5" groups at 50yrds off a bench (2-3MOA). However, when you extend the range, that 2-3MOA quickly turns into 5-6MOA, especially when you talk about 300-400yrds.

So the rifle is not LIKELY capable of this level of accuracy...

Secondly, the scope: Barska does not, and NEVER HAS, offered a 4-32x44mm scope (I called customer service to confirm). Even if it was a typo and he meant to put 8-32x, the scope is still not capable of making that shot. Barska has never offered a 8-32x scope with enough internal adjustment to allow a .22lr to shoot 400yrds. The maximum internal adjustment for these scopes is 40MOA TOTAL, with 20MOA below line. At 350yrds, the .22lr will have a total drop of 263" at 350yrds, which is 75MOA, so the scope is not able to adjust far enough to reach the 350yrds. WHICH MEANS Jack would have to make a hold over shot by aiming the cross hairs above the target to account for the drop. HOWEVER, the hold over is 22ft. The field of view for the 8-32x is 13-33ft TOTAL, so 6.5-16.5ft below line. This means the TARGET WOULD NOT BE VISIBLE IN THE SCOPE. So Jack would have to hold over 22ft with less than a 5% error (12" out of 22ft) on a target he can't even see.

So this scope is NOT capable of making this shot possible...

Finally, onto the shooter. There are holes in his own story that prove that he's full of it. He claimes to have a max range of 320m for a 12" target (3.4MOA), and a max range of 400m for a 2.5ft x 6ft target (6.8MOA). A skilled shooter would NOT increase group size by 100% with only a 20% increase in range. If you could really shoot 3.4MOA at 320m, then you could d*mn sure shoot better than 6.8MOA at 400m.

Making that shot IS possible, if you have a precision rifle, a highly adjustable scope, and a high level of marksmanship training, but No, I do not for one second believe that Jack of All Trades is capable of making those shots.

Source(s):

I'm a precision gun builder, an avid precision rifle shooter, and 1,000yrd competitor...

[tin-man]

[quote=cobish;1150204]

Originally Posted by dave from mesa

Mikie, Mikie, Mikie. Hopefully you will shoot off a bench. 2" @ 50 yds with open sights ain't no easy feat.

Interesting article for all you marksmen


To start out, I want to make a few clarifications...

First off, I would define a "headshot" as a reliable hit (EVERY TIME) on a 5-6" target at whatever given range you're talking about. A "headshot" proposition is REALLY a "brain shot", so we're talking about a 6" x 6" square on the front of the forehead, or a 6" x 6" square over the temple area.

Secondly, without trying to be a jerk and correct your terminology, I assume by "sniper rifle", you're refering to a mobile weapon system like the M-24 (Marine) or 40x (Army) that the military issues to Snipers/sharpshooters/Designated Marksmen, or a civilian equivalent, like the Remington 700. Sniper rifles are both accurate as well as mobile, which can be duplicated by, or EXCEEDED by civilian weapons available. So whether it's owned by, issued to, or held by a "military sniper" is irrelevant... When you say "sniper rifle", it's understood to mean a .30caliber accurized bolt action rifle.

So those 2 things locked down, then my answer is that a trained marksman should be able to reliably deliver a "headshot" with a "sniper rifle equivalent" to 1,000-1,200yrds.

Trained marksmen using precision equipment, with accurate and current environmental information should be able to deliver a 1/2MOA hit (i.e. 1/2" at 100yrds, or 5" at 1,000yrds) or better. A 5-6" head shot target would be 1/2MOA at 1,000-1,200yrds, which would be pressing the range of the "normal, exceptionally trained shooter".

There are, of course, legendary shots that have been made by military snipers that far exceed this expectation, but those are the exception, not the rule. In general, a 1/2MOA long range shooter is exceptional, so delivering, for example, a headshot at 2,000yrds (0.3MOA) is absolutely possible, but absolutely PHENOMENAL.

That said, I want to comment on Jack of all Trade's post. I don't normally do this, but I'm calling bullsh*t...

Jack of all trades claims he can make 12" shots at 350yrds (320m) with a Marlin 925R .22lr and a Barska 4-32x44mm scope. No, with the right equipment and training, this shot isn't impossible, but with his equipment and his apparent knowledge, I'd say NO, HE IS NOT CAPABLE OF IT.

First off, the rifle: The Marlin 925R is a fine weapon, but it is NOT a precision rifle, nor can it be made to be. Besides recrowning the muzzle, tuning the trigger, bedding the action, and free floating the barre, there isn't much you can do to accurize the 925. Even those changes (which would cost as much as the rifle) would not turn the modest 925R into a precision rifle. It's a light barreled budget rifle, NOT a precision weapon. The 925R in my experience will shoot between 1-1.5" groups at 50yrds off a bench (2-3MOA). However, when you extend the range, that 2-3MOA quickly turns into 5-6MOA, especially when you talk about 300-400yrds.

So the rifle is not LIKELY capable of this level of accuracy...

Secondly, the scope: Barska does not, and NEVER HAS, offered a 4-32x44mm scope (I called customer service to confirm). Even if it was a typo and he meant to put 8-32x, the scope is still not capable of making that shot. Barska has never offered a 8-32x scope with enough internal adjustment to allow a .22lr to shoot 400yrds. The maximum internal adjustment for these scopes is 40MOA TOTAL, with 20MOA below line. At 350yrds, the .22lr will have a total drop of 263" at 350yrds, which is 75MOA, so the scope is not able to adjust far enough to reach the 350yrds. WHICH MEANS Jack would have to make a hold over shot by aiming the cross hairs above the target to account for the drop. HOWEVER, the hold over is 22ft. The field of view for the 8-32x is 13-33ft TOTAL, so 6.5-16.5ft below line. This means the TARGET WOULD NOT BE VISIBLE IN THE SCOPE. So Jack would have to hold over 22ft with less than a 5% error (12" out of 22ft) on a target he can't even see.

So this scope is NOT capable of making this shot possible...

Finally, onto the shooter. There are holes in his own story that prove that he's full of it. He claimes to have a max range of 320m for a 12" target (3.4MOA), and a max range of 400m for a 2.5ft x 6ft target (6.8MOA). A skilled shooter would NOT increase group size by 100% with only a 20% increase in range. If you could really shoot 3.4MOA at 320m, then you could d*mn sure shoot better than 6.8MOA at 400m.

Making that shot IS possible, if you have a precision rifle, a highly adjustable scope, and a high level of marksmanship training, but No, I do not for one second believe that Jack of All Trades is capable of making those shots.

Source(s):

I'm a precision gun builder, an avid precision rifle shooter, and 1,000yrd competitor...

Whoever wrote it knows his stuff, my compliments. Cobish, thanks for sharing.
tin-man