Can you name this Component and its function?

[Joeyv]

My car is having a problem with fuel delivery. Fuel pressure is at 50lbs at idle but drops to 15 lbs when the accelerator is pressed. The speed shop was asking me to explain the function of the component behind he passenger side rear wheel is. My assumption is that the fuel pump behind the rear wheel (pictured) was for fuel return to the fuel cell, and the fuel pump on the rail under the drivers door (not pictured) was pumping fuel to the engine. The vertical aluminum cylinder in the picture that has fuel lines entering and exiting, I assumed to be a point of fuel accumulation to prevent fuel starvation issues. The speed shop I am working with has never seen this configuration and is questioning my assumption but has no theory on the components function. Since my Butler/Fodge Cobra did not come with any documentation, I was hoping someone on this forum might have insight to what this is.

Thanks in advance!

[CowtownCobra]

Maybe its the blinker fluid reservoir? ..............sorry, I couldn't help it

[Tommy]

This is a shot in the dark, but does your system resemble the one in this schematic? If so, it might provide a clue.
http://www.useasydocs.com/details/lpfp.gif

[CHANMADD]

I would say it's an accumulator. Holding fuel at pressure and if the pressure drops it will release....the accumulated fuel to prevent starving.....

[CHANMADD]

I like that upper arm over there...��

[mrmustang]

I see an electric fuel pump, then a reservoir with supply and return lines installed.

You should only have a need for one fuel pump as a supply to the engine, you should not have, nor ever need a fuel pump to return excess fuel to the fuel cell/gas tank.


Personally, if the speed shop could not figure this set up out, I'd be looking for a better qualified shop to work on my car(s).


Bill S.

[Thor maine]

It looks like one of those "heat sink" coolers that the drag racers use. It would be in some kind of a container that they would put ice in to chill the fuel.

[Jaydee]

Maybe its a lift pump, then the main pump. I reckon it's a accumulator to ensure steady pressure for fast cornering, as well as to the need for a lift pump. A main pump isn't great at lifting fuel if it's outside the tank.
JD

[Gaz64]

I see a carter low pressure pump drawing from the main tank which then supplies the tall alloy surge tank.
Your high pressure pump (not pictured) draws from the bottom of the surge tank to deliver fuel (AND no air) to the engine.
The return from the fuel regulator at the engine goes to the surge tank, overflow from the tank goes back to the main tank.

How long does it take to drop to 15 psi?

If it is virtually instantaneous, you have a weak high pressure pump or blocked filter issue.

If it takes some time, you have a weak or non-operating low pressure pump or pre-filter issue.

And as others have said, look for another shop if they can't work that out.

[GVS]

As a former automotive fuel system engineer, Gaz64's description makes sense. However, this is a complicated system. This might be a retrofit for a former carbureted engine (low pressure fuel system) with an older-technology return-style EFI. There are easier, more reliable ways to plumb & supply fuel for EFI. Modern EFI fuel systems have an in-tank fuel filter and a controlled in-tank high pressure pump with internal regulator and one fuel line to the engine. Prior to this, most systems had an in-tank pre-filter, constant pressure fuel pump with internal regulator, external fuel filter, fuel feed and return lines (late 1980s to mid 2000s). This type of system is easier to retrofit to an older vehicle.

OEM in-tank pumps are more reliable and keep fuel cooler than an external fuel pump. With that said, OEM in-tank pumps require careful selection and fuel tank fabrication to make them work. My "hot rod" uses a stock fuel tank, external pump and external fuel filter as it is an easier solution (and it is an occasional use vehicle). It's been fine for 11 years and 7000 miles of driving.

I am not familiar with a "Fodge EFI" and could not find information online about it. What type of fuel injection is this? What is its operating pressure?

[Joeyv]

Thanks guys. I think you nailed it with your assessments. I’m very confident that the car was originally a carbureted car (good call, GVS). I have receipts from a previous owner that show the removal of the carburetor and install of EFI, then removal of EFI and install of a carburetor, then injection being installed again. The EFI on it is an older style Felpro EFI from around 1995 (which was GVS’s point). The shop that installed it was named Fodge Engineering. GAZ64’s observation makes sense that the Carter Fuel pump is filling the alloy surge tank. There is also a Bosch High pressure pump (model: 0 580 254 984 0580254984 ) closer to the engine which I just replaced the same model non-functioning Bosch. The last owner had changes made so that it would be reliable on the track, so the configuration of the fuel system (at the time) must have made sense.

The shop said that the fuel pressure drops in 15 seconds or less. The shop said this particular EFI requires 6 lbs pressure per injector ( 48 lbs total). The Bosch fuel pump is spec sheet say it operates at 72 lbs. Next steps are to check inside the fuel cell to see if that is any crap in there from either Gas that evaporated out when the car sat, or crap from decomposing internals of the fuel cell (given that the car sat for about 15 years). Next, the fuel filters will be cleaned out or replaced (I did that when I was getting the car ready for the road, less than 50 miles ago). If the pressure still drops, the low pressure pump will be tested. From a cost perspective, I’m hoping to get the fuel system working with its current configuration, or with as few changes as possible.

The engine was running fine before it crapped out (the definition of a component failure, I know), so I am hoping there is crap in the fuel tank, or fouled filter, or low pressure fuel pump issue. If the EFI needs work, I may have a problem. There is concern that the software for the circa 1995 EFI may (probably) is out of support and that there may not be a cable to connect a laptop to the EFIs interface. I’m told replacing the injection could run $10 – 12 thousand (ouch), and conversion to carburetor $2,500 - $3,000.

The engine was first off checked for compression and bleed down, and there were no issues there. Mechanically the engine is fine, it is just seems to be a fuel delivery issue at this point. I’ll update this post when there are more developments. I really appreciated the input. I printed out the responses I received and drove down to the shop to update the guys working on the car. To their credit, they weren’t sure of how or why the fuel system was configured as it is, or what the function of the surge tank was, but they did know there was a simpler, less complex configuration that would work well on the car. Thanks!

[JBo]

If problem in fi system and it is not repairable...seek out a late 90's Ford 302 FI pick and buy the syste/ ecu and cat(s). You may have to redo fuel pump, but should be cheaper than crazy quote you have. Is this guys last name Overcharger by chance?

[BDR0572]

Been a long time since I dealt with the old system but if memory serves me and sometimes it don't that system was also called F.A.S.T. EFI system , might help find parts at a better price ,and I am assuming they checked the pressure regulator. silly but I have too ask.

[BDR0572]

Hey just read where the car sat 15 yrs have the shop check and see if the hose's are rubber inside or Teflon, rubber hose will collapse and Teflon will swell up and breakdown restricting flow ok- Im done curious to see what you find.

[Dwight]

crappie Ca. gas????????????????????????

[Joeyv]

JBo and BDR0572. Thanks for the information, I'll keep that in mind. As far as the pressure regulator is concerned, they did locate and check it...not sure how they tested it. I'll verify when I talk to them next. Thanks!

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by GVS

I am not familiar with a "Fodge EFI" and could not find information online about it. What type of fuel injection is this? What is its operating pressure?

Fodge sounds like a cross-breeding of Ford and Dodge.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Joeyv

The shop said that the fuel pressure drops in 15 seconds or less. The shop said this particular EFI requires 6 lbs pressure per injector ( 48 lbs total). The Bosch fuel pump is spec sheet say it operates at 72 lbs. Next steps are to check inside the fuel cell to see if that is any crap in there from either Gas that evaporated out when the car sat, or crap from decomposing internals of the fuel cell (given that the car sat for about 15 years). Next, the fuel filters will be cleaned out or replaced (I did that when I was getting the car ready for the road, less than 50 miles ago). If the pressure still drops, the low pressure pump will be tested. From a cost perspective, I’m hoping to get the fuel system working with its current configuration, or with as few changes as possible.

Looks like your low pressure side is the culprit.

Disconnect the HP pump from power, take the return hose off from the surge tank, run a hose from there into a bucket, run the low pressure pump, and measure volume versus time.

[Joeyv]

Hey guys, an update on my fuel delivery issue. I brought the car to a local speed shop because the engine was cutting out…seemed to be a fuel delivery issue. The shop did a compression and bleed down test on the engine, to verify the engine was sound. It tested out good (all cylinders around 200 PSI / 6% bleed down with the engine cold). The shop said the most obvious problem was that the bladder in the fuel cell was deteriorating, causing crap to float into the fuel lines and filters (there are 2 filters, one on either side of the high pressure fuel pump) and possibly crap flowed up to the injectors. I picked up the car on my trailer to address the Fuel Cell issue and other fuel line issues myself. The shop could have performed the work, but the Fuel Cell replacement and replacing the existing fuel line design with a single line to the engine and a single return (with the surge / accumulator tank removed from the design) was quoted at roughly $10,000. I’m confident that I can do that work for significantly less. Once I get through the fuel lines and fuel cell issues I’ll determine if the Injection stays as is, gets updated or replaced with a carburetor. I’m sure the shop performs excellent work; I’ve seen other cars they have built or are in process of building. Their work is expensive, and would be worth it for complex repairs or modifications outside of my ability…but not this type of work. I’ll keep you all posted on the work on progress. I appreciate the input everyone has provided!

[Richard Hudgins]

Joeyv,

The pricing to replace your fuel cell, feed and return system seems high by a factor of about 4.

First thing. What make is your fuel cell? Is it a bladder type? Is it a standard size and shape?

If it is a roto-molded cell like a Jaz the cell itself should be fine. The anti slosh foam is going bad. Easy to replace and not very expensive.

If it is a bladder type ie: Fuel Safe or AeroTec then yes, the bladders are past their sell by date.

Your system design might be just fine as it is. It was (and still is) common practice to have the high pressure pump pick up from a low pressure pump supplied reservoir to avoid high pressure pump starvation from cornering and braking forces.

I have a hard time seeing you spending more then 3k in parts for everything. And that is for a Aero-Tec Kevlar FluoroCell (2k). Much less for JAZ or RJS cell. (less then 400.00 for a cell)

a bit more research is in order before you draw your money guns....