have you registered a cobra in NSW?

[Treeve]

G'day all,

I'd like to give details on the 'moving goal posts', so that it is clear that this is a two way street.

First up: The RTA side of things.

with regards to Steering columns, the NCOP requires ADR 10/01, which is no problem. The latest ADR is 10/02, which is a problem. However, the RTA have begun to request 10/02 compliance, even though they have not ratified the NCOPv2 as the working document. This leaves people in a position where it is not possible to comply to the actual rules, as the RTA are relying on rules which are not in legislation yet. Unfair, but at the end of the day, if you work to the ADR's you should be right (you would think).

Well, that brings me along to my favourite topic: Seat belts, and multi point harnesses. The NCOP (and NCOPv2) both say no to road legal harnesses. However, ADR 4/04 and ADR 5/05 make specific allowances for harness type installations, and I have emails from the Department of Infrastructure detailing their interpretation of the ADR's and hence that harnesses are legal. What happens if you apply the most recent ADR in these cases? well, I'm afraid no harnesses - the RTA will chop and change between the NCOP, the NCOPv2, and the ADR's as they see fit, to flummox you and waste your time and resources.

That is the side from the RTA however, it isn't all one way - we've all heard the stories of people suing the RTA for allowing them to register their car (I think such as story was in this thread about the unlucky bloke whose wife lost their unborn child). I've also heard about seatbelt mountings through fibreglass panels (which sounds ridiculous, but I'm assured it's true).

Another side to look at it from is not from an ICV viewpoint, but from a modifiers viewpoint. Having owned some silly cars in the UK (V8 hilux with 5" spring lift, 2" body lift on 36" tyres), I know that you can legally modify all kinds of stuff. I also know you can illegally modify all kinds of things too - e.g. you can bolt on massive turbos - who gets their car re-engineered after this? you can fit 'fully sik' noisy exhausts - where was the engineering on the noise levels? (oh wait, that's not something you need engineering for - but you need it to be engineered to register the car... thus making it legal to have a registration set of quiet rear exit pipes, and a set of side pipes at home for you to install after engineering is complete without breaking the RTA's rules - but I didn't tell you that). what about fitting 22" rims to your hilux? well, the vehicle needs to be de-rated so you can run car tyres on it - it should be registered on Light Truck tyres only as it has a tray. Do you honestly believe they've all done that?

Part of the issue is the RTA not using repeated standards, however a larger part of the issue is the general public not having the awareness of their legal requirements. The RTA are trying to improve the situation from their end, it is just hard to see an end game that suits both them and us (and the engineers).

As a small note, the NCOPv2 was supposed to be in place from 1/Jan/11; the RTA were significantly involved in the compilation of the new NCOP. less than 3 months after this date, they have already emailed the engineers asking for NSW specific modifications to the National Code Of Practise. What are they wasting my taxpayer money on now?

Cheers,

Treeve

[400TT]

You guys have hit the nail on the head

Yes, each state transport department controls the ICV process in each state.

So that's why each state start with the ADR's and then add in their own additional requirements or remove any they don't consider important for ICV's.

NSW & QLD have been the worst offenders in having additional requirements over what other states ask for.

NSW is a moving goal post at the moment.

QLD's extra requirements currently are fibreglass body testing, bump steer reports, plastic/polycarb certs, additional requirements for wheels, certified calcs for seatbelt mounts etc.

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by 400TT

QLD's extra requirements currently are fibreglass body testing, bump steer reports, plastic/polycarb certs, additional requirements for wheels, certified calcs for seatbelt mounts etc.

Craig - are the seat belts mounting points a full ADR (destructive) test that you need to do in NSW now, or something else?

Cheers

[Zedn]

Treeve,

Not entirely correct on the exhaust. The Protection Of Environmental Operations Act (POEO Act) prohibits modifications to emissions and modifications that effect noise. If a car is pulled over by the EPA and assessed for modifications to emmisions you will be prosecuted under this Act and also defected.

The fines under the POEO Act are far worse than a defect notice and are 10s of thousands of dollars.

Craig,

I am also interested to hear what QLD require for Seat Anchors and Seat Belt Anchor testing/compliance for ICVs (ADR 3 and ADR 5). Can you please elaborate on certified calcs? Do you just mean calculations by the engineering signatory?

Cheers.

[OZCOBRA]

Originally Posted by Zedn

Treeve,

Not entirely correct on the exhaust. The Protection Of Environmental Operations Act (POEO Act) prohibits modifications to emissions and modifications that effect noise. If a car is pulled over by the EPA and assessed for modifications to emmisions you will be prosecuted under this Act and also defected.

The fines under the POEO Act are far worse than a defect notice and are 10s of thousands of dollars.

Cheers.

One would Note here in Vic. now you don't here alot of the turbo boys scooting around and popping the old blow off now...If the EPA get ya for it here you'll START with a $1500.00 Fine for exiting to the atmosphere!

[Zedn]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

One would Note here in Vic. now you don't here alot of the turbo boys scooting around and popping the old blow off now...If the EPA get ya for it here you'll START with a $1500.00 Fine for exiting to the atmosphere!

Yep, Same thing. Fined for modifications to factory emmissions and im not sure about the exact clause in Vic as each state has seperate legislation, but in NSW there is also a clause about using a motor vehicle to make unnecessary noise.

[400TT]

Originally Posted by 400TT

certified calcs for seatbelt mounts etc.

Detailed report with calculations by an engineering signatory.


I won't be doing a destructive test for seat belt mounts in the short term, cannot justify it. I stand behind the certifed report I have, but believe they should show the amounts far exceeding the requirements so that there is no doubt on the strength on the mounts. Basically overdesign the mounts so that they are certified as exceeding the requirements by many multiples. I think most, if not all here would trust seatbelt mounts like that for the safety of themslves, family members & friends. Anyone seen what the seatbelt mounts look like in a Korean production car. (shakes head and walks away)

I do believe in some sort of certification for seat belt mounts, it is a critical safety factor. But destructive tests, have the authorities forgotten that we are talking about Individually Constructed Vehicles here, we are getting a lot closer to production car requirements.

Unfortunately it is a fine line between what is viable financially for a scratch built car, the true essence of ICV's, and safety. With the $1000's required to certify & engineer an ICV, well it has cost me $10,000's per vehicle for the certifications I already have, who could justify a scratch built car now. I would hate to see scratch builts disappear.

[Zedn]

Thanks Craig.

Sounds like common sense to me. Hopefully the RTA will agree.

I was quoted 3.5k for seat anchors and 8k for seatbelt anchors.