LS3 vs Coyote

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

Yes you did, but you didn't convince me of anything....

That was never my intention. If facts presented in the face of conjecture and myth aren't convincing to you, then that's not my problem.

Besides, why do you even think I care what you think about the information I post? I post facts to enable people to be well informed. If you prefer the "Trust me, I'm an engine builder" approach, then that's perfectly cool with me...

The first engine I ever rebuilt (twice) was a Pontiac 400. The most recent engine I've done is a Nissan 4-liter inline six.

Along the way I've built 5 Chevies (3 GenI's, One MarkIV, and one LS/GenIII), 1 Oldsmobile, 2 Toyotas, 1 Ford Windsor, and a Briggs and Stratton. Yes, the number of engines I've done must pale in comparison to the number you have done. You're a professional, I'm not.

The number of computers I've built probably dwarfs the number you have built, but if I was out on some online forum spouting off about how Dells are superior to HP's, and you came in with some accurate technical information that implied that HP's were actually no worse than Dells, they're just different, then I guess I'd have a license to play the "Trust me, I'm an IT guy" card...

Facts create knowledge, and knowledge can only strengthen trust.

Originally Posted by blykins

And since when do you have to work for another company to steal ideas or concepts? That's a pretty retarded argument.

What ideas or concepts did GM steal, exactly? The 4.4 inch bore centerline (the one that makes LS heads "line up" with Windsor blocks) first came out in 1955 with the GM 265 V8, not the Windsor... and actually, I did make a technical mistake in my post above: The Windsor's bore centerline is actually 4.38 inches, not 4.4; so in reality, LS heads are actually only "close enough" to line up with a Windsor block. They are not perfect matches.

Fact. Sorry for the error above.

Patented designs are rarely "stolen" without litigation. If there were any design elements of the LS engine that violated any Ford patents, then there would be public records of Ford's ensuing lawsuits...

{crickets chirping in the background}

Originally Posted by blykins

I still haven't figured out which side you're on. You're like one of those Republicans who plans to vote for Hillary.

It's easy to understand- I have no "preferences" with regard to the Big 3 American car companies of the 1960's. None at all.

I've never built a Mopar, but I sure do think that a crazy cammed 440 wedge is one mean sounding engine; Even though I am equally likely to think that the Plymouth GTX that the 440 is sitting in, is one butt-ugly car, with its snap-on hubcaps, and its 5-acre trunk sticking out the back...

Shelby Cobras are supremely cool- Therefore I own a car that almost sorta resembles one. With respect to tradition, I personally believe that Cobras are best oriented with Ford engines. (I believe that, meaning my viewpoint is based in personal opinion; not based on any biased perception regarding Ford's assumed design or engineering superiority)

Picking "sides" is something I haven't done since I was in high school. Back then, I was a Pontiac guy (which in hindsight, and with the benefit of several decades of wisdom earned, seems pretty silly)- You mentioned retarded-

Well, the Ford versus Chevy (versus Mopar) debate is, to me, just about as retarded as the argument about whether Troy Bilt riding lawn mowers are superior to Craftsman riding lawn mowers...

Deez Nuts for President.

[blykins]

The fact that this is something that I do professionally should add a little clout to the argument. If it doesn't, then so be it. However, it's my job to be familiar with bore spacings, valve angles, port dimensions, port volumes, etc. I see similarities between engines and I see where some engine designs are taken from the positive aspects of others.

However, you can bolt an LS head onto a SBF block with the same ease that you can bolt a 351C head to a SBF block. If you can't see the similarities between an LS head and a Cleveland head, I'm not sure how to explain it to you.

The very fact that the changes made to the SBC line of engines (that had in fact been popular since the 50's) going from Gen 1 to the LT1/LT4 and then from the LT to the LS line made them functionally more like a SBF is very hard to dispute.

So, you can add all the little literary intricacies to your paragraphs that you want (crickets chirping) but as you put it, the facts are indeed the facts.

Just so you know, I am a Pontiac fan too.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

If you can't see the similarities between an LS head and a Cleveland head, I'm not sure how to explain it to you.

The very fact that the changes made to the SBC line of engines (that had in fact been popular since the 50's) going from Gen 1 to the LT1/LT4 and then from the LT to the LS line made them functionally more like a SBF is very hard to dispute.

I can see the similarities, and I'm not disputing the similarities. I just can't bridge the gap to implying that these similarities exist due to industrial espionage, or copy-catting, any more than I could when I point out the LS1 inspired intake manifold sitting on top of the Coyote5.0

Originally Posted by blykins

Just so you know, I am a Pontiac fan too.

Hey- It's the Indian in me that makes me so ornery....

[blykins]

I never said that GM engineers broke into fords engineering building and copied all their data… I am saying that the similarities are (by far) not coincidental.

Anyone can take a look at a winning cylinder head package, figure out why it's so good and then implement those factors into a new design.

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by blykins

However, you can bolt an LS head onto a SBF block with the same ease that you can bolt a 351C head to a SBF block. If you can't see the similarities between an LS head and a Cleveland head, I'm not sure how to explain it to you.

How is the LS similar to a Cleveland head? I can't see it. The port shapes are nothing alike. LS has tall narrow cathedral ports and exhaust ports that work. Valves are all in line on the LS where as the Cleveland head they are porcupine and more like a BB chev.

I have a 4V Cleveland sitting on the floor not 10 feet from an LS1 and they couldn't look more different to me. The bore spacings might be the same and they are 4 bolt ber cylinder but that's about it.

The real question you have to ask is "Why are people trying o bolt LS heads on Windsor blocks if the Windsor is so much superior?" You don't hear LS guys going on about their Cleveland head conversions...

All this discussion about copying, again I can't see it. The motors have elements that lots of different manufacturers used. The deep skirted block of the LS motor with it's cross bolted mains... Is that a rip off of the FE motor? Umm Chrysler and plenty of European manufacturers have used that technique too.

It's like saying GM made their pistons round just like Ford. They must have copied that idea

Many elements of all these motors have been shared across a ton of other designs. Each is their own unique combination. Some combos work better than others for different reasons.

I like the motors from both these manufacturers. I posted the vid because I thought it was an interesting comparison of two different ways to get the job done. Both sound great and will make more power than you know what do do with in a Cobra.

You get the same arguments like: "My 2L Nissan makes more power per cubic inch than your clunky old V8 so it must be bette...r" If that makes you happy with the team you cheer for then OK, whatever floats your boat.

[blykins]

Bore spacings are alike.....valve sizes.....port volumes.....intake to exhaust flow rates (exhaust ports do NOT work, most LS7 camshafts have 20-30 extra degrees of duration built into the exhaust side, which is similar to a Cleveland, where it's not uncommon to add another 8-12 degrees of exhaust duration), exhaust port spacing, etc, etc. Now obviously it's not a direct copy, because technology has advanced in the last 40 years, but the LS design is 180° out from the traditional SBC and is much closer to a Ford. Compare an LS7 head to a 4V Cleveland head some time.

Another added bonus, when you convert an LS engine to a carb/distributor setup, you use an MSD Ford 302 distributor.

I have no clue why people are putting LS heads on Fords. Probably because LS engines can be bought for pennies on the dollar and since the heads do so well, it's a potential for an easy power adder. Plus, it's just hot rodding nature I suppose. When you have a Ford 302 that has 160 cfm intake ports on factory heads and you can bolt on something that approaches 300 cfm, I could see the attraction....

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

It's like saying GM made their pistons round just like Ford. They must have copied that idea

Best post of the day... Priceless.

[Millsy]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

That was never my intention. If facts presented in the face of conjecture and myth aren't convincing to you, then that's not my problem.

Besides, why do you even think I care what you think about the information I post? I post facts to enable people to be well informed. If you prefer the "Trust me, I'm an engine builder" approach, then that's perfectly cool with me...

The first engine I ever rebuilt (twice) was a Pontiac 400. The most recent engine I've done is a Nissan 4-liter inline six.

Along the way I've built 5 Chevies (3 GenI's, One MarkIV, and one LS/GenIII), 1 Oldsmobile, 2 Toyotas, 1 Ford Windsor, and a Briggs and Stratton. Yes, the number of engines I've done must pale in comparison to the number you have done. You're a professional, I'm not.

The number of computers I've built probably dwarfs the number you have built, but if I was out on some online forum spouting off about how Dells are superior to HP's, and you came in with some accurate technical information that implied that HP's were actually no worse than Dells, they're just different, then I guess I'd have a license to play the "Trust me, I'm an IT guy" card...

Facts create knowledge, and knowledge can only strengthen trust.



What ideas or concepts did GM steal, exactly? The 4.4 inch bore centerline (the one that makes LS heads "line up" with Windsor blocks) first came out in 1955 with the GM 265 V8, not the Windsor... and actually, I did make a technical mistake in my post above: The Windsor's bore centerline is actually 4.38 inches, not 4.4; so in reality, LS heads are actually only "close enough" to line up with a Windsor block. They are not perfect matches.

Fact. Sorry for the error above.

Patented designs are rarely "stolen" without litigation. If there were any design elements of the LS engine that violated any Ford patents, then there would be public records of Ford's ensuing lawsuits...

{crickets chirping in the background}



It's easy to understand- I have no "preferences" with regard to the Big 3 American car companies of the 1960's. None at all.

I've never built a Mopar, but I sure do think that a crazy cammed 440 wedge is one mean sounding engine; Even though I am equally likely to think that the Plymouth GTX that the 440 is sitting in, is one butt-ugly car, with its snap-on hubcaps, and its 5-acre trunk sticking out the back...

Shelby Cobras are supremely cool- Therefore I own a car that almost sorta resembles one. With respect to tradition, I personally believe that Cobras are best oriented with Ford engines. (I believe that, meaning my viewpoint is based in personal opinion; not based on any biased perception regarding Ford's assumed design or engineering superiority)

Picking "sides" is something I haven't done since I was in high school. Back then, I was a Pontiac guy (which in hindsight, and with the benefit of several decades of wisdom earned, seems pretty silly)- You mentioned retarded-

Well, the Ford versus Chevy (versus Mopar) debate is, to me, just about as retarded as the argument about whether Troy Bilt riding lawn mowers are superior to Craftsman riding lawn mowers...

Deez Nuts for President.

Come on man, MURRAY made the best tractors, ha!