Rollbar Specification Change for Wakefield and Nationals

[NASSTY]

SpookyPT and Aussie Mike, I totally agree with you.

I'm running two hoops although not with the third leg on each for cosmetic reasons only. I have also beefed up the chassis for the roll bars and have gussets for longitudinal loads, if that makes sense, to address the issue of not having third legs on the hoops. Safety is very important.

There are a minority of people running the lap times that require these mods. I've said earlier that it appeared to me that most people do not drive at 10 10ths so most people won't be affected. I just wouldn't like to see these changes being imposed on everyone as I think the fun factor would start to disappear which may affect participation.

[Rebel1]

Several good points....

Mike makes an important point...that is that manufacturers should include the mounts to ensure proper safe fitment.

What would really stop this type of event would be a serious accident.

Especially if after this debate some-one gets seriously hurt or... god forbid...killed.

Take it from some-one with first hand experience ...anything you can do to keep the human body intact and safe during these risky pastimes is time and money well spent.

[spookypt]

Craig, yes, notice is a BIG issue.. After last years Nats would have been seemingly more appropriate! How will anyone who runs times like that make mods like that in 3 months....?

However, Nassty is right too, why should he change his car to meet a lap time requirement when it is neither a CAMS or Venue Requirement. Then as Les said, safety in the end is paramount and no short comings should be tolerated!

I think that a car running times mid 1.12's (experienced driver) is no less safe than a car running mid 1/25's with a first timer. Times should not be the pre-qualifier for installation of safety items.. It just makes no sense to me anyway!!

[400TT]

Originally Posted by spookypt

I think that a car running times mid 1.12's (experienced driver) is no less safe than a car running mid 1/25's with a first timer. Times should not be the pre-qualifier for installation of safety items.. It just makes no sense to me anyway!!

From my experience just as many slower drivers come off the track as do the faster ones. It's hard to say whether the severity is the same, although last year we saw some high-speed off-track excusions from some slower vehicles. If we incorporate tougher safety standards for faster vehicles, what would happen if a slower vehicle was involved in a serious accident.

I know the solution, just upgrade to a Daytona with full cage. No problems with roll cage spoiling it's beautiful lines, it's all hidden away inside. I know Harrison Daytona's are supplied standard with a half rollcage and optional full rollcage.

Another thing that should be raised, are GT40's any safer than Cobras. Most GT40's don't have any roll-over protection at all. And there isn't a lot of strength in the roof/doors. Mind you there isn't a lot of GT40's at the nationals.

[sambo]

Wazza, I guess in the event of rolling a Cobra, the idea is that the rollbar takes the impact and not your helmet - hence the 50mm clearance.

Personally I reckon if you've managed to flip your car there are plenty of other issues at hand... eg, armco barriers, fire, etc.

[Plums]

I have only been looking at this from a racer point of view, (I'm not yet a racer but definitely will be) but...

If you had a great street/show car and only used it as street/show car, how could you justify the expense of these new changes.
I'm sure there are people that would only take it to the circuit once or twice to "see how it goes".... I would fall into this category, but then again I would be drag racing so will probably have to have a cage anyway.

[TUF-427]

Hi All,
Its about time this thread gathered momentum,
I believe it a topic that needs to be judged by the cobra community.
Even though Im looking down the barrel of some modifications myself,
I am not opposed to some new safety measures being implemented,
its just the details that may need some fine tuning..
The Harness inclusion is a good idea,
something that is well overdue for my car anyway.
And is an item that can be fitted to most cars without detracting from the look or function of the car,except not legal for street use which I cant understand either...

The rollbar issue definatly opens a can of worms,
especially with the older generations of kits where cosmetic rollbars were the standard,and mods wont be easy or cheap..
Maybe a set of guidelines could be worked out for each type of kit,
Harrison Front mounts deemed ok when used with rear stay,
Drb mounts would definatly need work but guidelines formulated .
Etc,
for each type of kit would take guesswork out of turning up at scruiteneering on the friday at least..
The 50 mm height is probably a little lenient ,
as some rollbar regulations are a line drawn from top of bar to front guard or upper suspension mount being a no go zone for the helmet..
As somone else mentioned,
Think laterally and lower the seat ,
not raise the bar....

Theres always Street Class,
the T/As are nice and hard now....

Peter...

[vettestr]

I have often wondered how many events could get insurance get a sign off from the lawyers drawing up the events contract without a defined standard of minimum safety equipment for each class of the cars. In the USA everybody is caught up in the (sue crazy world) in some way or the other. I hope it is not as bad on your side of the big pond. The (hold harmless sign offs) are just another piece of paper if stuff hits the fan in many cases.
The standard safety equipment is a good thing and all are damn glad you have it if ever needed but some items can seem expensive until needed anyway. I support the general intent of these requirements and time will define the rules to a reasonable list so folks can then decide what class they want to play in from that point forward.

[400TT]

One drama I can see with the short notice for the QLDers is that they have a full calendar year of racing, not much downtime to make modifications.

Any serious changes normally occur over the xmas break when they have a long enough break from racing.

So even though it seems like they have just under 4 months to make the modifications, by the time you look at their race schedule between now and the nationals, there really isn't a lot of time to make these changes.

And the only QLDers that are really affected by these changes are the ones that race all the time.

Another thing I was thinking about was the GT40s. I'm assuming any GT40s faster than 11.99 would need a roll cage. Now that's no simple feat to retro-fit. And by design I would think it would be virtually impossible to get the bar 50mm above the drivers helmet.

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by 400TT

And the only QLDers that are really affected by these changes are the ones that race all the time.

I don't think this is much of an excuse. If these guys are racing all the time wouldn't you think they should be on top of their safety gear setup already? I think if I were doing more than one or two track events a year I would be giving this a high priority.

Cheers

[400TT]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

I don't think this is much of an excuse. If these guys are racing all the time wouldn't you think they should be on top of their safety gear setup already?
Cheers

I'm guessing that they already consider their cars safe enough already, I know most have spent considerable time & money making safety changes. And to be honest I'm not going to judge their opinion or priorities on safety. They are certainly compliant for all the racing they do up here. It's just that 50mm rule that seems to be the killer. That's a big ask in a Cobra, considering most want to keep them looking the part. Remember these are street driven cars, quite a few are strong show cars as well. Also don't forget about soft-top/hard top clearance as well, most would have problems there if the roll bar is changed. It wasn't long ago that structural roll bars were virtually non-existent, that's why most kits don't have factory roll bar supports.

Plus applying different rules on a time basis has some serious issues in my opinion.

Up here we have seen plenty of Cobras have serious off-road excursions into barriers etc. We have not had any incidents that would have benefited from a Cobra style roll bar no matter what height or mounting. Seat belts, seat construction, head support(head rests), side protection seem to be more important issues and factors in these type of incidents.

To be honest we have been struggling to get interest in the Nationals as we have plenty of race, show & social events up here to keep everyone happy. It's a long and expensive trip to the Nationals from QLD. We only gathered enough momentum so far to support Shelby Fest for one year(2006). I doubt we would be able to do it again unfortunately, took too much out of everyone. It wasn't long ago(a few years), we struggled to get much interest at all in the Nationals and I don't want to go back to those days. And it's not just us, this will affect all interstate competitors.

These rule changes don't affect me at the moment, so I don't have any personal involvement in them.

[Bryan Wilson]

Follow this link to a post I made on a similar subject.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by 400TT

It wasn't long ago that structural roll bars were virtually non-existent, that's why most kits don't have factory roll bar supports.

Actually Craig, In the early 1990's when the RMC was the favored kit in Queensland, you could not register without a roll bar. It was strongly enforced by the Dept of Transport. They required at least 40mm thick wall chrome moly, across behind the passenger and it had to be padded with a 25mm padding. Everyone used that black foam tube used for pipe insulation. It made the bar 4" in diameter with the foam tube fitted. That was why, in those days, no-one ran the single hoops behind the driver.

Rick Perceval (sp) and Connor Craig, then agents for the RMC, argued for months with the Department for an exemption from the roll bar rule. It took the release of cars such as the MX5 etc., before the department removed the requirement.

Gawddd, now I'm really showing my age.

[spookypt]

Your right Craig! I know Paul G is his GT wants to put in a roll bar but as yet doesn't have one. He and the car are VERY quick! What do they do there???

I think a bit of a guidleine rethink is required..

I thought the reasons WAZZA's helmet only sat higher above the roll bar was due to the unusually large size of his swollen MELLON. His car would look funny with a hoop that big to give the 50mm clearance! (I'm waiting for a nibble :-))


SpookyPT T T T T

[400TT]

I certainly applaud the requirement of race harnesses. A properly fitted harness will help in any type of track incident. And I'm really glad the Nationals committee are making that change.

A roll bar as fitted to a Cobra will only ever help in a roll over, it doesn't offer any side or frontal protection.

We have a few Cobras up here that have roll bars fitted that mount to the chassis in all 3 positions. They are made of thick enough material to comply. The cars already have race harnesses and some have race seats. But they fall down on not having 50mm clearance above the helmet. And they all go faster than the cut-off 11.99 time. These vehicles are regulary raced(monthly) by very experienced drivers.

I would really hate to see some of the fast drivers forced back onto their old street tyres just to be able to race at the Nationals. I reckon that would be even more dangerous. Especially with things like the old 15" T/A tyres that some have, certainly more of a chance of rolling one of those off the rims compared to their 16, 17 & 18" race tyres and that is a recipe for a bad accident and a good chance of a roll over.

The QLD Club has had a really strong response this year again for the Nationals and it takes a lot of work and dedication to get big numbers to make the trip to the nationals. I certainly fear these extra requirements might take the wind out of the sails somewhat, lets hope not.

[Wazza]

Originally Posted by spookypt

Your right Craig! I know Paul G is his GT wants to put in a roll bar but as yet doesn't have one. He and the car are VERY quick! What do they do there???

I think a bit of a guidleine rethink is required..

I thought the reasons WAZZA's helmet only sat higher above the roll bar was due to the unusually large size of his swollen MELLON. His car would look funny with a hoop that big to give the 50mm clearance! (I'm waiting for a nibble :-))


SpookyPT T T T T

It's not so much my noggin, but it's because I am unusually large in the crotch area, and it forces me up out of the seat a lot more than "normal' chaps.......by the way......are you bringing your lovely girlfriend along to the Nats this year ????

[Philm]

Originally Posted by Wazza

It's not so much my noggin, but it's because I am unusually large in the crotch area, and it forces me up out of the seat a lot more than "normal' chaps.......by the way......are you bringing your lovely girlfriend along to the Nats this year ????

Wazza, I have heard that "Depend" make a slim line nappy now. That might get your crotch down to the normal size.

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Wazza

It's not so much my noggin, but it's because I am unusually large in the crotch area, and it forces me up out of the seat a lot more than "normal' chaps.......by the way......are you bringing your lovely girlfriend along to the Nats this year ????

Correct me please if I'm wrong but you have 2 cobra's and four sets of wheels?!?

Must be doing something right!

[Wazza]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

Correct me please if I'm wrong but you have 2 cobra's and four sets of wheels?!?

Must be doing something right!

Yeah,I know,

Stupid enough to be pouring a ton of moolah into just ONE Cobra.... but I HAD to have the race Cobra as well.

AND, On that subject of tipping cash down the drain......

Just arrived home from dropping off a gearbox at the workshop, and inspecting the new engine.....let me tell you what happened......


Only owned the race car a short time,and on only the third lap into a two day race meeting at Queensland Raceway.... and BANG...I managed to split the block.....yes....AGAIN.

i.e. I Split the block right down the middle/top to bottom a few years ago on the street Cobra, three days after I had completed the full build ,and installation of the 347 stroker, and this time the race car was split down through the mains.....no where near as dramatic this time.

However, the "all new" engine has been built over the last few weeks,

( 302 Windsor, Arias forged pistons, Crane cam, Scat crank, light weight flywheel, solid lifters, Heads re-machined,Romac balancer, Rollmaster double timing chain etc. etc. etc.....and bloody etc.)

and it looks like it will do the job.

HOWEVER.....

There's MORE !!!

Whilst installing it on Tuesday, and ready to bolt on the T5 Gearbox...

Upon closer inspection of the gearbox, we discover that it has MAJOR problems also !!!

Cluster shaft....Input shaft.....busted...teeth missing...etc. etc....and bloody etc.!!

It now seems that perhaps the engine split, may have been "assisted" by a gearbox detonating.

Fingers crossed....the T5 I picked up today will be bolted on, and all running, ready for the Dyno by the weekend.

Now the Street Cobra......

Just had a lot of money spent on it,( All new leather interior/boot etc)
now that it will be a semi-retired race machine, and this brings me back to the new regulations for the roll bars etc.

Not too keen on changing anything on the Black and Yellow beast, and consider it to be modified enough for the race track, without any more money needing to be spent on it.

The intention was to race both cars at the Nationals...so we'll see what happens.

Again...I know that the organizers are just thinking of the safety aspect, but I can assure you, the height of the roll bars is the last thing I'd be worried about.

The danger in driving the Cobras, is usually nothing to do with the possibility of a roll over.

Their low centre of gravity will simply make the cars slide sideways once they've reached their cornering limits.


There's plenty of other concerns...

Tank slapping,

Sliding sideways,

Lack of decent brakes,

Head and shoulders sticking out above the height of the doors,
with not much protection in the case of a side impact,

Poor brake bias,

Poor steering,

Poor suspension set ups,

Rock hard, rarely driven on ,tyres,

First time on racetrack,

Never really opened up the Car...didn't realize what a weapon it was,

Driving well beyond capabilities.

Sometimes I think that the fact that these Cobras are not the safest cars in the world, stops a lot of us from pushing our luck,and we learn very quickly that it's not worth it to push the limits too often.

I also hope that a roll bar doesn't make anyone think that they can push a bit harder, with a false sense of security.

I believe that those who are doing the sub 1.12s around Wakefield, all have a pretty good idea of what's needed and have all addressed the above list of dramas.

I think that it should be up to the individual owners to have their self preservation at the top of their list, and if you want to have a car that gets around the track at the faster times, you will already have covered all of the safety issues.

Making new requirements for those doing 1.12 or better is probably targeting the wrong participants....it would make more sense to make the new rules apply to everyone OVER 1.12........semi-serious....just trying to make a point of course.

Food for thought anyway,

Regards,
Warren.

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Wazza

Only owned the race car a short time,and on only the third lap into a two day race meeting at Queensland Raceway.... and BANG...I managed to split the block.....yes....AGAIN.


Regards,
Warren.

Bugger! Is anything salvagable?