Rollbar Specification Change for Wakefield and Nationals

[sambo]

What are the requirements in other countries? Just a thought...

[Philm]

Originally Posted by Wazza

It's not so much my noggin, but it's because I am unusually large in the crotch area, and it forces me up out of the seat a lot more than "normal' chaps.......by the way......are you bringing your lovely girlfriend along to the Nats this year ????

Wazza, I have heard that "Depend" make a slim line nappy now. That might get your crotch down to the normal size.

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by 400TT

And the only QLDers that are really affected by these changes are the ones that race all the time.

I don't think this is much of an excuse. If these guys are racing all the time wouldn't you think they should be on top of their safety gear setup already? I think if I were doing more than one or two track events a year I would be giving this a high priority.

Cheers

[400TT]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

I don't think this is much of an excuse. If these guys are racing all the time wouldn't you think they should be on top of their safety gear setup already?
Cheers

I'm guessing that they already consider their cars safe enough already, I know most have spent considerable time & money making safety changes. And to be honest I'm not going to judge their opinion or priorities on safety. They are certainly compliant for all the racing they do up here. It's just that 50mm rule that seems to be the killer. That's a big ask in a Cobra, considering most want to keep them looking the part. Remember these are street driven cars, quite a few are strong show cars as well. Also don't forget about soft-top/hard top clearance as well, most would have problems there if the roll bar is changed. It wasn't long ago that structural roll bars were virtually non-existent, that's why most kits don't have factory roll bar supports.

Plus applying different rules on a time basis has some serious issues in my opinion.

Up here we have seen plenty of Cobras have serious off-road excursions into barriers etc. We have not had any incidents that would have benefited from a Cobra style roll bar no matter what height or mounting. Seat belts, seat construction, head support(head rests), side protection seem to be more important issues and factors in these type of incidents.

To be honest we have been struggling to get interest in the Nationals as we have plenty of race, show & social events up here to keep everyone happy. It's a long and expensive trip to the Nationals from QLD. We only gathered enough momentum so far to support Shelby Fest for one year(2006). I doubt we would be able to do it again unfortunately, took too much out of everyone. It wasn't long ago(a few years), we struggled to get much interest at all in the Nationals and I don't want to go back to those days. And it's not just us, this will affect all interstate competitors.

These rule changes don't affect me at the moment, so I don't have any personal involvement in them.

[Bryan Wilson]

Follow this link to a post I made on a similar subject.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by 400TT

It wasn't long ago that structural roll bars were virtually non-existent, that's why most kits don't have factory roll bar supports.

Actually Craig, In the early 1990's when the RMC was the favored kit in Queensland, you could not register without a roll bar. It was strongly enforced by the Dept of Transport. They required at least 40mm thick wall chrome moly, across behind the passenger and it had to be padded with a 25mm padding. Everyone used that black foam tube used for pipe insulation. It made the bar 4" in diameter with the foam tube fitted. That was why, in those days, no-one ran the single hoops behind the driver.

Rick Perceval (sp) and Connor Craig, then agents for the RMC, argued for months with the Department for an exemption from the roll bar rule. It took the release of cars such as the MX5 etc., before the department removed the requirement.

Gawddd, now I'm really showing my age.

[spookypt]

I just had a good look at the Nats photos from last year and all I can say is good luck finding a car with 50mm clearance between helmet and roll bar top. I sit very low in my car based on a Cobra Race Seat and NO runners and I doubt I would be compliant. Maybe, but even so then my car in rego'd form would be classed as "unroadworthy" as my seat no longer has runners which is an ADR requirement.

The deeper we dig the uglier it gets....

Wazza, the thought of you in a nappy and race suit with bare feet does not paint a pretty picture....

Funny you mentioned my beautiful GF as she did say to me once for a man with such a large personality you seem to present quite unimpressively in the sugar daddy department! It must have been a VERY COLD morning!

She is considering the idea of joining us all.... Beats cuddling up to Scotty!
And perhaps the noises coming from my room will be far more pleasant than thso ereverburating like last year! Yeee HAaaaaa

Wazza, on a serious not perhaps we best get this sorted so we all know the real extent of the issue?

SpookyP tttt

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Wazza

It's not so much my noggin, but it's because I am unusually large in the crotch area, and it forces me up out of the seat a lot more than "normal' chaps.......by the way......are you bringing your lovely girlfriend along to the Nats this year ????

Correct me please if I'm wrong but you have 2 cobra's and four sets of wheels?!?

Must be doing something right!

[Wazza]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

Correct me please if I'm wrong but you have 2 cobra's and four sets of wheels?!?

Must be doing something right!

Yeah,I know,

Stupid enough to be pouring a ton of moolah into just ONE Cobra.... but I HAD to have the race Cobra as well.

AND, On that subject of tipping cash down the drain......

Just arrived home from dropping off a gearbox at the workshop, and inspecting the new engine.....let me tell you what happened......


Only owned the race car a short time,and on only the third lap into a two day race meeting at Queensland Raceway.... and BANG...I managed to split the block.....yes....AGAIN.

i.e. I Split the block right down the middle/top to bottom a few years ago on the street Cobra, three days after I had completed the full build ,and installation of the 347 stroker, and this time the race car was split down through the mains.....no where near as dramatic this time.

However, the "all new" engine has been built over the last few weeks,

( 302 Windsor, Arias forged pistons, Crane cam, Scat crank, light weight flywheel, solid lifters, Heads re-machined,Romac balancer, Rollmaster double timing chain etc. etc. etc.....and bloody etc.)

and it looks like it will do the job.

HOWEVER.....

There's MORE !!!

Whilst installing it on Tuesday, and ready to bolt on the T5 Gearbox...

Upon closer inspection of the gearbox, we discover that it has MAJOR problems also !!!

Cluster shaft....Input shaft.....busted...teeth missing...etc. etc....and bloody etc.!!

It now seems that perhaps the engine split, may have been "assisted" by a gearbox detonating.

Fingers crossed....the T5 I picked up today will be bolted on, and all running, ready for the Dyno by the weekend.

Now the Street Cobra......

Just had a lot of money spent on it,( All new leather interior/boot etc)
now that it will be a semi-retired race machine, and this brings me back to the new regulations for the roll bars etc.

Not too keen on changing anything on the Black and Yellow beast, and consider it to be modified enough for the race track, without any more money needing to be spent on it.

The intention was to race both cars at the Nationals...so we'll see what happens.

Again...I know that the organizers are just thinking of the safety aspect, but I can assure you, the height of the roll bars is the last thing I'd be worried about.

The danger in driving the Cobras, is usually nothing to do with the possibility of a roll over.

Their low centre of gravity will simply make the cars slide sideways once they've reached their cornering limits.


There's plenty of other concerns...

Tank slapping,

Sliding sideways,

Lack of decent brakes,

Head and shoulders sticking out above the height of the doors,
with not much protection in the case of a side impact,

Poor brake bias,

Poor steering,

Poor suspension set ups,

Rock hard, rarely driven on ,tyres,

First time on racetrack,

Never really opened up the Car...didn't realize what a weapon it was,

Driving well beyond capabilities.

Sometimes I think that the fact that these Cobras are not the safest cars in the world, stops a lot of us from pushing our luck,and we learn very quickly that it's not worth it to push the limits too often.

I also hope that a roll bar doesn't make anyone think that they can push a bit harder, with a false sense of security.

I believe that those who are doing the sub 1.12s around Wakefield, all have a pretty good idea of what's needed and have all addressed the above list of dramas.

I think that it should be up to the individual owners to have their self preservation at the top of their list, and if you want to have a car that gets around the track at the faster times, you will already have covered all of the safety issues.

Making new requirements for those doing 1.12 or better is probably targeting the wrong participants....it would make more sense to make the new rules apply to everyone OVER 1.12........semi-serious....just trying to make a point of course.

Food for thought anyway,

Regards,
Warren.

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Wazza

Only owned the race car a short time,and on only the third lap into a two day race meeting at Queensland Raceway.... and BANG...I managed to split the block.....yes....AGAIN.


Regards,
Warren.

Bugger! Is anything salvagable?

[Wazza]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

Bugger! Is anything salvagable?

Some of the spark plugs seemed o.k. !!!!

The heads...Carby, Inlet manifold...not much else was kept.

Not all of it was stuffed, but,
The old block was machined to 40 thou, so consequently the pistons were too big for another block, unless I machined them to the limit...and they were pretty standard pistons, standard small I beams etc. etc.
Once it was decided to Use new forged Arias, H Beams, the rest just "sort of" followed.

Old engine had hydraulic Lifters....decided to go Solid Lifters.
I know the new cam, because it's the same specs and brand now as my Black and yellow Cobra...it works well.

And on it went.......

[OZVENOM]

ITS an old saying and rings true today I am not one to take safety lighly in fact i am almost obsesive about it .
The roll bar is probably the easiest thing to fit to a cobra so all you have to do is take it out get taller one bent up in the correct material and bolt it in . if you have a non structual rear brace you dont have to put a hole thru the body you just build up a mount from underneath to support it.
I know i make it sound easy but i knoe it will take a bit of work but dont you think you safety is worth it.
Think back 2 years to queensland raceway with the 2 rollovers coming off turn 3 they both were just unlucky for it to happen but it could happen to anyone of us.
I havent herd anyone boasting about winning lotto. but we all sure have had some bad luck.
The other issues like belts and seats are just as important.

spooky doesnt have to worry he has all the gear .

unlike most of you i have had some big crashes in speedway racing many years ago so i know how important good equipment is. if i had a video capture card i could put one up for you to see. it silenced the whole crowd when it happend. lucky i only had a few bruses and redeye.

I am definatly with Craig on the implementation time they could have told us at xmas at least. and yes i am fully booked up thank you.
And thats my 5 cents worth.
oz

[Philm]

Just a thought, for those who need a 3rd leg, could you run one from the top of the hoop into the passenger foot well and pick up the chassis there.

I am not sure if that is acceptable but as most cobras floor carpet is removable so there would be no visible change to the car.

I like Scotts idea, bend a new taller hoop and then with a new removable 3rd leg into the passenger foot well. You could pack it up and put in in your boot and fit it at the track.

I know that you would not be able to carry a passenger but I don't think the need would arise.

Phil

[Wazza]

Just scrolled through about 150 photos of cars taken at the last couple of Nationals, and found maybe 4 cars that would pass the rules for the roll bar required height.

Again, I say, It's not something that should be implemented as a safety requirement for just a "couple" of the competitors.

If you think the safety "cut off" should have anything to do with being able to get around that track under 1.12 then I believe you've missed the point.

Although I know the intentions of the organisers are to make the attendees safer,It's not a Cams event, and not a requirement of Wakefield park, and picking out a thing like changing the height of the roll bar isn't going to make a scrap of difference to the safety of almost all of the ompetitors/participants at this years Nationals.

It's not Bathurst, nor a hard fought door to door full on racing event, but more like a social sprint around a race track, the same as a hundred other car clubs enjoy all year without too much stress.

I firmly believe that safety is very important, and if anything , we should be making a list of things to do to our cars that WILL make it safer, rather than flogging a dead horse with this fixation on the roll bars.

Things like:
Suggested tyre pressures for Street Tyres.
Brakes that operate correctly.
Diffs that work properly...how many times have I seen cars lose it when just one wheel is getting all the juice.??!
Steering checked.
and so on.

By all means, let's pass on some constructive ideas on how to help the less experienced, or "normal" drivers get around the race track in their Street cars, and stop worrying about a half a dozen, experienced drivers, that are on racetracks every month, but are affected by the new rules !

Almost None of the Cars will comply with the roll bar requirements,( Almost ALL of them fail on the height issue alone ) but most will also be allowed to scoot around that track with a lap sash seat belt, and not much in the way of any other restrictions.

The cars are all roadworthy, and provided the owners drive within their capabilities, we'll enjoy the thrill of getting on a race track in relative safety.
There will always be an element of danger...that's why we love these very special cars...but that doesn't mean we have to start treating this like we're all driving in a Grand Prix event.

My 2 cents worth.

Regards,
Warren.

[400TT]

You guys do realise that's basically the end of the GT40's competing. They go faster that the required time and roll bar is not 50mm above the drivers helmet, that's if they have a roll bar fitted.

Due to the placement of the roll cage in a GT40(in the front of the engine bay), the roll bar ends up slightly lower than the main roof height and I don't know of a GT40 in existence where the helmet does not press against or come very close to the roof. One of the GT40's that comes down to the Nationals from here even has a Gurney bubble(raised bubble in the roof) for the driver to fit in with a helmet on.

I was actually enthusiastic about fitting a roll bar to my GT40, got the rear clip cut out to fit it. But it's a huge job and due to the mounting available I'm not sure how structurally sound it will be. It's easy to get them fitted when the chassis is made and is now an option, but retro fitting them is a pain.

For a lot of Cobras, that big a change in roll bar height will mean the soft top no longer fits. And most Cobras do not have the structural mounts there to start with.

I agree you can't be too safe, but our usual Cobra manufacturers & fitters will not be able to fit these roll cage changes in before the Nationals. So that means running around using any tom, dick or harry.

I'm certainly going to push for pre-scrutineering to occur locally up here this year for the major items. Just too big a risk now to travel all the way down to the Nationals to get knocked back and not compete. We've taken the risk in the past and some members have had hassles, just not the ideal way to do it. We have skilled people like OzVenom, Warwick Harrison etc that are certainly capable of doing the scrutineering, but can we find someone skilled that has the time.

What should have happened was at the last Nationals, the scrutineers/committee should have inspected the vehicles in question, looked at what safety features they had and looked at how they could be improved and the problems/difficulties in doing so. Then supplying the new requirements 12 months in advance.

I know what the easiest option is, race on plain street tyres so that the times do not break 1.12 barrier. Is that safer than racing on track rubber, defintely not in my books. Or will they not bother attending, now that would be a disaster for the QLD club.

Lets just hope that if any changes are made, they are swift as this doubt is not helping enthusiasm for the event.

[750hp]

For anyone not willing to race-prepare their street car, take a leaf out of Wazza's book and buy or build a track car. Wouldn't it be nice if someone had a painted body/chassis unit for sale that already had a taller rollbar welded in place by Ozvenom, and a lift-off front for easy maintenance....
Any takers?

[spookypt]

Craig, for sale??? Hmm, my next race car!!!!!!

Wazza, your comments are spot on... I'm all for one in all in and I think if it culls the numbers to a point of ridiculousness I won't be going. Despite maybe being one of the few who would pass these rules (and I am certainly planning to give my 1.15 a couple of sec nudge this year)

It's the vibe of everyone going that makes it!

Perhaps a good opportunity to run our own little event up here! :-)

Hmmm..... memories of super league.......

Someone down south hasn't thought this through very well!

SpookyPT

[400TT]

The other thing that has yet to be clarified is whether the 50mm is measured horizontally or as it should be, measured diagonally up from the front of the car to the top of the roll cage and the 50mm clearance is required where that line insects with the drivers helmet.

[spookypt]

Craig, if the CAMS way of measuring a roll bar is adhered too as you suggest..... I caa only think of a handful of cars that would pass... aka Eve's... maybe mine.....

[schipps]

[quote=Wazza]Yeah,I know,


Only owned the race car a short time,and on only the third lap into a two day race meeting at Queensland Raceway.... and BANG...I managed to split the block.....yes....AGAIN.

i.e. I Split the block right down the middle/top to bottom a few years ago on the street Cobra, three days after I had completed the full build ,and installation of the 347 stroker, and this time the race car was split down through the mains.....no where near as dramatic this time.

Wazza,

I think I have found your problem with the splitting blocks...

You keep putting a smelly old Ford motor in...

I have searched the forum and can't seem to find a Dark side split block...
Maybe you should consider the Chevy alternative

Regards Mick