Tires...what are you running?

[Late Apex]

Originally Posted by Winchester67

My Backdraft has a set of BF Goodrich Radial T/A tires on it. They only have about 5,000 miles on them, but are ten years old. Apparently when new they were made of banana skins and have not gotten any better with age. Well, that was a little harsh. I remember when these tires were one of the right answers, but Lordy, that was a LONG time ago. What are you running in 2015? Wait, let me give you enough info to answer...I am a 50 year old responsible citizen that has been a car guy since age 14 when I got my first car, a 1966 Mustang. I am not a racer anymore. I drive pretty easy these days but still require decent stickiness as well as a high speed rating because even at my advanced age I still bend to peer pressure and have to put the spurs to the car now and again largely at my friends requests. Tread life is not really that important...this is just a toy. I don't have a top or windows, so wet weather performance is not really a consideration for me. So what is working for you?

5k miles is not high but 10 years old can really get you into trouble. Tire rubber ages from time also as the lubricants release causing them to become dry and stiff. A good safety rule for most is to replace them not only based on mileage and "visible" wear but also no more than 4-5 years time. Not from the day you bought them but from the born on date posted on the sidewall. Just a thought.

[hawk 325]

I am running Cooper Cobra, 245/60/15 front and 295/50/15 rear

[ront49]

Originally Posted by hawk 325

I am running Cooper Cobra, 245/60/15 front and 295/50/15 rear

I'm putting some Cooper Cobra's on this afternoon ... 235/60 15 in front and 295/50 15 rear. Had no trouble with the original BF Goodrich, but their 15 years old. 5K and they still look like new just know it's time for some fresh rubber.

[Mark IV]

Always amused by people who b!tch about the cost of the Avons. Many are the same people who brag about an engine mod they did to take it to "600 HP', "700" etc. but they won't spring for tires to ACTUALLY make the power usable. Heck, 450 HP with BFG TAs is not usable. Everything your Cobra does must be done via four relatively small contact patches of rubber; acceleration, braking, turning, are all dependent on the tire contact patch.

Put the best you can afford on the car and consider it an annual expense, i.e. if the tires are $1000.00 and you change them out at 5 years it was $200.00 per year just like your oil and filter. More than 5 years on a performance tire is asking for it. The argument "it still has good tread" is facetious, tread depth does not guarantee tread performance as tires outgas and harden over time.

[Argess]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Always amused by people who b!tch about the cost of the Avons.

I'd like to say "I don't find the cost of Avons amusing", yet the English language is so weird sometimes. I don't find the cost of Avons amusing, but yet I can also say the price is laughable.

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Everything your Cobra does must be done via four relatively small contact patches of rubber; acceleration, braking, turning, are all dependent on the tire contact patch.

True, but all but braking is a matter of choice. Braking isn't because it could be required during an emergency caused by someone else. Acceleration and braking? You may have a point on the track, but public roads are not a racetrack. I'm sure we all choose to ignore that at times, but I, for one, still can drive in a spirited manner without pushing my car to its limits where the increase of risk is substantially higher.

So... for all of you who have Avons on your car, do you also have the best brake pads money can buy? Or did you get fooled and installed race pads for the street where they won't work well as they don't get hot enough.

What about the best wheel bearings? We don't want a wheel falling of while driving.

There's a lot of things that can make a car safer or more treacherous, but the most dangerous thing of all is the driver.

Anyway, we disagree, but here's some facts I recently posted in another forum and will repeat here:

Coincidentally, I recently bought a durometer…. Just for fun. This one reads rubber hardness on the Shore A scale. So I can check my tires. Softer ought to mean better grip. Unfortunately tire manufacturer’s do not seem to list a Shore rating for their tires. Oddly, many manufacturer’s of Radio Control car tires do. That’s where I got the idea. Hmmm…..



What it is useful for, is to use it on a brand new tire, and then monitor its hardnesss as it ages (and is heat cycled by driving).

Research

I tried doing some research, and here’s some things I found:

1/ According to an old document I found on the net, my BFG Radial TAs have an initial Shore number of 62

2/ From a Corvette Forum:

Mid 50s to 70ish--anything above that & things will get a bit slick, especially on the rears

3/ From a Research Paper:

During a tyre's lifetime, the rubber hardness of individual tyres may increase by up to 15 Shore A, which is equally large as new tyres may differ in hardness due to construction and material design.

4/ From the same source (my interpretation of a chart/table):

Increase in Shore number for tires made in 1990 (with a new Shore rating of 58 ) and stored for 10 years is an increase of 0.9 per year. This was for some unknown model of tire. Other brand tires, or made with newer (or older) technology, or with a different new Shore number would likely vary from this.

5/ From PitStopUSA.com:

I learned that rubber doesn’t have a set shelf life. When stored properly, tires (rubber in general) can last a very long time. Tires can degrade over time but what degrades a tire the most is exposure to heat and light. So if a tire is stored in a dark, cool place it shouldn’t show much signs of aging.

I have been told for most of my life that “Tires get old and should be replaced every five years no matter how they look and how much tread is left.” I have also been told that as a tire ages it gets harder and looses traction. These two things don’t necessarily jibe with what I learned to during my research. Confirming or dispelling what I have been told for so many years seemed relatively simple. Measure the hardness of older tires and compare them to newer tires.

I believe that old tires don’t necessarily need to be discarded just because they are old. I also think I dispelled the myth that older tires get harder as they age. If stored properly tires can have a very long service life. It is not the age of the tire itself that causes problems but extended exposure to the sun and heat that degrades it. Certainly, years of exposure to sunlight and blistering temperatures will ruin a tire and cause it to get hard and crack.

Testing

Before I start, it must be stated that Shore readings increase the colder a tire is and really ought to be measured at room temperature (somewhere I read 23 degC). So my testing doesn’t mean all that much this time of year.

At any rate, I did some testing outside (zero degC), some inside my unheated garage (7degC) and one test at room temp (about 20degC).

First, my BFGs which I bought around 1996 and still look like new due to low mileage and being stored in a dark garage, came in at 78. Even when the summer heat comes around, I doubt I’ll be anywhere close to the “new” value of 62. So they are harder than new, and that means less grip.

Interestingly, using that 0.9 per year figure, mine could be at almost 83, but perhaps lack of sunlight helped. The other source lists a max increase of 15, so that would bring mine up to 77... almost bang on 78.

The 78 number is high based on the Corvette Forum limit of about 70.

I then tested the Michelins on my Toyota, which was outside in the cold and got 62.

It just so happens I had a brand new winter tire inside in the warmth and it measured 58. I then put it outside for about 2 hours, not enough to really get it cold, but enough for the Shore number to increase to 60.

Looking at graphs of tire age vs. Shore values, the hardening of tires (the Shore number) goes up rather quickly over time and starts to level off with a total increase of about 15.

It looks rather exponential with a lot of Shore increase in the first two years. So this means a brand new BFG might have better traction than an Avon that's several years old. Of course that won't happen as the Avons probably won't last that long.

Although Alfa02 (member here) doesn’t appear to like BFGs, I do like his quote:

“…our cars were meant to (Slide) with 15" tires, not stick…”

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by Argess

I'd like to say "I don't find the cost of Avons amusing", yet the English language is so weird sometimes. I don't find the cost of Avons amusing, but yet I can also say the price is laughable.



True, but all but braking is a matter of choice. Braking isn't because it could be required during an emergency caused by someone else. Acceleration and braking? You may have a point on the track, but public roads are not a racetrack. I'm sure we all choose to ignore that at times, but I, for one, still can drive in a spirited manner without pushing my car to its limits where the increase of risk is substantially higher.

So... for all of you who have Avons on your car, do you also have the best brake pads money can buy? Or did you get fooled and installed race pads for the street where they won't work well as they don't get hot enough.

What about the best wheel bearings? We don't want a wheel falling of while driving.

There's a lot of things that can make a car safer or more treacherous, but the most dangerous thing of all is the driver.

Anyway, we disagree, but here's some facts I recently posted in another forum and will repeat here:

Coincidentally, I recently bought a durometer…. Just for fun. This one reads rubber hardness on the Shore A scale. So I can check my tires. Softer ought to mean better grip. Unfortunately tire manufacturer’s do not seem to list a Shore rating for their tires. Oddly, many manufacturer’s of Radio Control car tires do. That’s where I got the idea. Hmmm…..



What it is useful for, is to use it on a brand new tire, and then monitor its hardnesss as it ages (and is heat cycled by driving).

Research

I tried doing some research, and here’s some things I found:

1/ According to an old document I found on the net, my BFG Radial TAs have an initial Shore number of 62

2/ From a Corvette Forum:

Mid 50s to 70ish--anything above that & things will get a bit slick, especially on the rears

3/ From a Research Paper:

During a tyre's lifetime, the rubber hardness of individual tyres may increase by up to 15 Shore A, which is equally large as new tyres may differ in hardness due to construction and material design.

4/ From the same source (my interpretation of a chart/table):

Increase in Shore number for tires made in 1990 (with a new Shore rating of 58 ) and stored for 10 years is an increase of 0.9 per year. This was for some unknown model of tire. Other brand tires, or made with newer (or older) technology, or with a different new Shore number would likely vary from this.

5/ From PitStopUSA.com:

I learned that rubber doesn’t have a set shelf life. When stored properly, tires (rubber in general) can last a very long time. Tires can degrade over time but what degrades a tire the most is exposure to heat and light. So if a tire is stored in a dark, cool place it shouldn’t show much signs of aging.

I have been told for most of my life that “Tires get old and should be replaced every five years no matter how they look and how much tread is left.” I have also been told that as a tire ages it gets harder and looses traction. These two things don’t necessarily jibe with what I learned to during my research. Confirming or dispelling what I have been told for so many years seemed relatively simple. Measure the hardness of older tires and compare them to newer tires.

I believe that old tires don’t necessarily need to be discarded just because they are old. I also think I dispelled the myth that older tires get harder as they age. If stored properly tires can have a very long service life. It is not the age of the tire itself that causes problems but extended exposure to the sun and heat that degrades it. Certainly, years of exposure to sunlight and blistering temperatures will ruin a tire and cause it to get hard and crack.

Testing

Before I start, it must be stated that Shore readings increase the colder a tire is and really ought to be measured at room temperature (somewhere I read 23 degC). So my testing doesn’t mean all that much this time of year.

At any rate, I did some testing outside (zero degC), some inside my unheated garage (7degC) and one test at room temp (about 20degC).

First, my BFGs which I bought around 1996 and still look like new due to low mileage and being stored in a dark garage, came in at 78. Even when the summer heat comes around, I doubt I’ll be anywhere close to the “new” value of 62. So they are harder than new, and that means less grip.

Interestingly, using that 0.9 per year figure, mine could be at almost 83, but perhaps lack of sunlight helped. The other source lists a max increase of 15, so that would bring mine up to 77... almost bang on 78.

The 78 number is high based on the Corvette Forum limit of about 70.

I then tested the Michelins on my Toyota, which was outside in the cold and got 62.

It just so happens I had a brand new winter tire inside in the warmth and it measured 58. I then put it outside for about 2 hours, not enough to really get it cold, but enough for the Shore number to increase to 60.

Looking at graphs of tire age vs. Shore values, the hardening of tires (the Shore number) goes up rather quickly over time and starts to level off with a total increase of about 15.

It looks rather exponential with a lot of Shore increase in the first two years. So this means a brand new BFG might have better traction than an Avon that's several years old. Of course that won't happen as the Avons probably won't last that long.

Although Alfa02 (member here) doesn’t appear to like BFGs, I do like his quote:

“…our cars were meant to (Slide) with 15" tires, not stick…”

Interesting stuff... thank you for posting!

[Tom Wells]

Argess,

Very nice, comprehensive look at rubber hardness.

Alas, after being involved in tire construction and testing for 7+ years, hardness is not the only factor in tire safety. I definitely agree it's one factor.

Another consideration, perhaps invisible from outside the tire - but not always - is internal adhesion between the various layers of rubber, and between the rubber and its reinforcing tire cord.

Occasionally there can appear a bit of a bulge, or surface irregularity that gives a clue, but often there's no change visible to the casual observer.

As you accurately point out in so many words, the chemical composition of a tire changes over time. You might say it ages. As it does, adhesion can be reduced between the components.

As aging occurs, and it often reaches significant effects around the 5 to 6 year mark, the tire becomes structurally weaker. The rate and the extent of the loss of strength is dependent on a myriad of factors such as its design, materials, original chemical composition, any trauma that may have happened over its life, temperature conditions, and probably ten or twenty other factors.

Agreed, these cars are usually lighter in relation to their tires rated load capacity so the effect of the weakening may take longer to appear. Conversely, speed, acceleration and braking forces may hasten failure, even on a lighter car.

So, as Clint once famously said "How lucky do you feel?"

I change mine every 6 years. Anything more than that is a big dice roll - maybe it adds to the thrill?

Tom

[undy]

315/35/17 M/T drag radials. Front wheel lifts are now possible!

[Mark Brye]

on the factory 17s I am running kumho xs with 245/45 front 315/35 rear.
I also have another set with wider 17s wheels that are Ps2 245/45 front and 335/35 rear. Then my favorite setup that is pretty much on the vehicle all the time is the Backdraft 18" wheels with ps2 in front and a nitto Drag radial 335/30/18 in rear.

[427sharpe]

Firestone Firehawk SZ50-ep/RF (!). Great grip dry, and absolutely the best tire I have ever had in wet conditions. The run flat is a nice feature for me (no spare), and highly recommended. Sensors easy to mount and a light on the dash may save a lot of trouble. The tires are discontinued now but mine are still relatively new, so no tire drama for awhile. 285/40/17 and 245/45/17. Chose those sizes because they were the Corvette standard, making them relatively common if on the road. This is the same TPMS I installed, very pleased:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Schrader-SCH-BRK-4PC-Retrofit-Passenger-Wireless-Battery/dp/B008YQOZMG"]Amazon.com: Schrader SCH-BRK-4PC TPMS Retrofit Kit For Passenger Car and Light Truck (Wireless-Battery Operated Display): Automotive@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qjHRE73bL.@@AMEPARAM@@51qjHRE73bL[/ame]

[Argess]

I'm running BFGs. Put them on brand new in 1996. Car is stored in a dark garage, so no sunlight and not too dry. No cracking. No discouloring. Tires look great and work fine.

They work fine for street driving where I'm responsible enough not to treat it like a race track, yet irresponsible enough I do push it a little bit at times.

I am, however, getting a little paranoid as they are 23 years old and there's a lot of threads on the dangers of old tires (like this 4 year old thread). There's also a lot of threads on BFGs being inappropriate for light cars, like our Cobras.

I think it's about time for new tires. Might get BFGs again. Was thinking of the MT STs, but it is my understanding the Cooper Cobras are basically the same thing, and I can buy them locally.

The Cooper has a UTQG rating of 440 A B, so I will assume the MT STs do as well. This is actually a worse rating (440 last longer so are likely harder than 400 tires, so less grip) that the BFG (400 A B) despite that many Cobra owners deem both the M-T and the Cooper appear to be very acceptable second place alternatives to the Avons.

I won't be buying Avons for a number of reasons. Too expensive, and I do believe their advantage is largely touted by those who have bought them in order to justify the expense. Too sticky; I'd rather slide a bit than suddenly flip. Rather lose grip at a speed I can handle too. They wear too fast. I don't track my car. They aren't available locally. They don't look very nice. I could probably go on, but this picture will do for now:

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Argess

I'm running BFGs. Put them on brand new in 1996. Car is stored in a dark garage, so no sunlight and not too dry. No cracking. No discouloring. Tires look great and work fine.

They work fine for street driving where I'm responsible enough not to treat it like a race track, yet irresponsible enough I do push it a little bit at times.

I am, however, getting a little paranoid as they are 23 years old and there's a lot of threads on the dangers of old tires (like this 4 year old thread). There's also a lot of threads on BFGs being inappropriate for light cars, like our Cobras.

I think it's about time for new tires. Might get BFGs again. Was thinking of the MT STs, but it is my understanding the Cooper Cobras are basically the same thing, and I can buy them locally.

The Cooper has a UTQG rating of 440 A B, so I will assume the MT STs do as well. This is actually a worse rating (440 last longer so are likely harder than 400 tires, so less grip) that the BFG (400 A B) despite that many Cobra owners deem both the M-T and the Cooper appear to be very acceptable second place alternatives to the Avons.

I won't be buying Avons for a number of reasons. Too expensive, and I do believe their advantage is largely touted by those who have bought them in order to justify the expense. Too sticky; I'd rather slide a bit than suddenly flip. Rather lose grip at a speed I can handle too. They wear too fast. I don't track my car. They aren't available locally. They don't look very nice. I could probably go on, but this picture will do for now:

Can you list the size of your rear tire please?

Gary

[Argess]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Can you list the size of your rear tire please?

Gary

If you're being facetious, then LOL!!! If you are serious, let me first say the picture I posted was stolen from the net and all I did was add an anti-Avon license plate to it.

Second, my rear tire size is 295/50R15 of which there aren't many brand choices available. I recently posted about a brand I hadn't heard of before that offers that size. It didn't get much attention.

MileStar StreetSteel Tires

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Argess

If you're being facetious, then LOL!!! If you are serious, let me first say the picture I posted was stolen from the net and all I did was add an anti-Avon license plate to it.

Second, my rear tire size is 295/50R15 of which there aren't many brand choices available. I recently posted about a brand I hadn't heard of before that offers that size. It didn't get much attention.

MileStar StreetSteel Tires

Ok, I'm glad that picture is not your car.

I can't see that one handling well on the street, or anywhere for that matter, LOL.

295/50/15 is a great tyre, but less available these days.

Gary

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Ok, I'm glad that picture is not your car.

I can't see that one handling well on the street, or anywhere for that matter, LOL.

295/50/15 is a great tyre, but less available these days.

Gary

As far as I've been able to determine, here's the list of 295/50R15 tires currently available:

• Cooper Cobra Radial G/T
• BFGoodrich Radial T/A
• Hankook Ventus H101
• Mickey Thompson Sportsman S/T Radial Tires
• Mastercraft Avenger G/T

In addition, you can also get the Hoosier Quick Time D.O.T. in 295/50-15, but it's not a radial tire (bias ply).

[BDR_Boy]

Rear: Nitto NTO5 315/35 ZR17
Front: Nitto NTO5 235/45 R17

In March they’ll be 4 years old… and I’ll likely begin looking for a fresh set. I’ll stick w/ the same rear size… but will be looking to change the front to Nitto NTO5 255/40 R17.

[fastd]

Add Mickey Thompson SR to the list.

[sd427]

Also, Firestone Firehawk Indy 500

Edit - Hmm, the Firestone website does not list that size, but many retailers like Amazon, etc list it. Maybe it was recently discontinued, and they are selling off old stock?

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by fastd

Add Mickey Thompson SR to the list.

Nope. The MT S/R is not available in 295/50R15. It's available in 26X12.00R15LT (about 0.8" smaller in diameter) and 28X12.00R15LT (~1.2" taller).

Close, but no cigar. Well, at least if you're looking specifically for 295/50R15.

[lnfletcher]

Ran BFG 245/60/15 front and 295/50/15 rear for 14 years no problems,
Now have Mickey Thompson Street Comp 245/45R17 and 315/35R17, love them!
Like to get some 15" tires to replace the BFGs on my other rims. Leaning heavily toward MT sportsman ST.