learning... question about rack and pinion

[Roylerumble]

Well I'm going through the forums and threads, learning a lot. I have a question about buying a rack. I'm building an old never assembled kit, and I need a rack. I'm thinking manual, but a local shop said I might have troubles fitting an aftermarket rack to the crossmember. Any experience with this. I assumed any mustang ii rack would fit.... the sshop I've been taking with think i may need to cut the whole front end out and put a new setup in. I'm kinda thinking I need to find a new shop...

[RallySnake]

The critical thing is that the pivot points of a steering rack must line up with the inner pivot points of the upper and lower A arms. If they don't, you will have very bad bump steer problems.

You should post some pictures of your front suspension in hopes that someone will be able to identify it and help you find the right rack. If it's a Mustang 2 suspension, then the problem is easily solved.

RS

[Roylerumble]

Rally Snake,
the kit came with OEM lowers, but does not have uppers. I've been reading on here about the different widths of factory vs. aftermarket, and upgrading, and think (still have to do my research, so correct me if I'm wrong or you have a suggestion) that I will use Heidts package (link below) and QA1 coil overs, after I lower the upper mount by lowering it 2.5". I'm reading about the issues ppl have had with clearance, travel, shock/struts making contact, diameter of the bolts, not matching, geometry. I'm really hoping to NOT have to do a ton of fabrication to the frame. The kit is still in storage 400km away and I'm waiting for good weather to pick go pick it up.

https://www.heidts.com/part/plain-tu...tabs-ca-112-m/

[FredG]

You might want to reach out to Flaming River. They make racks for everything.

Fred

[ERA 626]

what company makes the kit?

[Roylerumble]

Era 626, which kit? the car? its a classic roadster, never assembled, pretty much complete. has factory lower control arms from a mustang 2 and a huge sway/stabilizer bar, but that's it for the front suspension. Might be some spindles too. I'm planning on a pretty much stock 5.0 efi from a 91 lx mustang, t5 5 speed, 8.8 rear. I'm thinking about biting the bullet and installing the parts mentioned above to upgrade the front.

[74proii]

Be very careful with aftermarket like faming river. They like to make units closer to early fox bodies which are a "quick ratio" you want stock or "as stock". quick ratio are very twitchy, if you look a direction, you are already turning that way.

[fordsrule@msn.com]

Hi if your Classic Roadster is like mine 1991 era it will have two sets of mounting holes for the steering rack so you can use mustang 2 or a newer rack ,I would check and do some measurements and double check.

[Chicagowil]

Not saying your shop is completely wrong, but I do have to question what they see with your car. Do they understand it needs a Mustang II rack and not a Fox Body rack? There are two different MII racks available for hot rods. One has only one set of bolt holes, the other with three holes to be compatible for either hoice.

I also have a 91 CR1. It has all stock Mustang II front suspension and manual steering rack. The Mustang II geometry is some of the best designs at a reasonable cost ever put into a production car.

And though many folks have replaced the UCA & LCA's with aftermarket pieces, unless you are going road racing, its not really necessary. Remember the suspension was designed for a car almost 800 lbs heavier than our cars. The important part is to make sure the rubber isolators and bushings are in good shape.

Are you going to run a small block or big block? If you go the big block direction, you may want to consider power steering. Also, the aftermarket racks do come with specific dimensions for the mounting bolts. I have a Locost 7 I am building and it has a R&P from Speedway. The only thing funky about it was the tie rod end thread on the rack had a different thread than stock and when I needed different tie rod ends- it is not compatible.

Last question do you have the assembly manual with the car? I believe you an find a digital format of it on this forum. Though it is not the best, it does have a lot of the all outs for what parts you need. If you need something specific let e know and I can try and answer you.

Thom

[Roylerumble]

Originally Posted by Chicagowil

Not saying your shop is completely wrong, but I do have to question what they see with your car. Do they understand it needs a Mustang II rack and not a Fox Body rack? There are two different MII racks available for hot rods. One has only one set of bolt holes, the other with three holes to be compatible for either hoice.

I also have a 91 CR1. It has all stock Mustang II front suspension and manual steering rack. The Mustang II geometry is some of the best designs at a reasonable cost ever put into a production car.

And though many folks have replaced the UCA & LCA's with aftermarket pieces, unless you are going road racing, its not really necessary. Remember the suspension was designed for a car almost 800 lbs heavier than our cars. The important part is to make sure the rubber isolators and bushings are in good shape.

Are you going to run a small block or big block? If you go the big block direction, you may want to consider power steering. Also, the aftermarket racks do come with specific dimensions for the mounting bolts. I have a Locost 7 I am building and it has a R&P from Speedway. The only thing funky about it was the tie rod end thread on the rack had a different thread than stock and when I needed different tie rod ends- it is not compatible.

Last question do you have the assembly manual with the car? I believe you an find a digital format of it on this forum. Though it is not the best, it does have a lot of the all outs for what parts you need. If you need something specific let e know and I can try and answer you.

Thom

Thanks for the rely Thom,

Part of the issue I'm hearing, and the shop is saying, is that finding the stock OEM parts was easy in the 90's and 2000, but as most of those cars are crushed and long gone, and finding parts someone has for sale is hard, and then you have to rebuild them. I and they are also afraid of the compatibility issue you mentioned with thread pitch. It seems geometry is different from OEM vs Aftermarket mii, so combining parts many be a huge headache. The shop is building another cobra bought by a guy in my area from the same seller, and they say they aren't impressed by the welds, and want to add some stiffening and rigidity to some areas.

The plan for this build is quite mild. Close to stock 5.0 from a 91 lx 5 speed 8.8 donor car I have. I'm gonna have to try to make the pedal box from it work, or spend more cash on another option from tilton or willwood. I don't want this project to nickle and dime me, but I dont want to cut crucial corners or skip upgrades I'll regret in the future, like upgrading to a modern 4 wheel disc brake system, or worse, something that requires major fabrication that would have been easier to do now, like changing the upper strut mounts to accommodate a modern coil over available from QA1 or similar.

I need to address a few missing parts issues, like the absence of upper control arms, spindles, heater box, pedal box, side pipes, roll bar (found the drawing on here). Again, I don't have super deep pockets, this is a father son project, but I don't wan't to scab it together either.

I found the manual! read it through once. Going to print it off tonight and go through it again.

[Chicagowil]

All good ideas. If you pick aftermarket parts that use the stock specs, you should not need any additional items.

For a manual rack-
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Musta...it,379653.html

Also look at CJ Pony Parts, I have had great lock with them on my 67 Mustang.

Thom

[t walgamuth]

Sounds like you need a different shop.

[LMH]

This isn't an original style chassis, is it?
I know of one recently up for sale and wondered if it's the one you've bought.

Larry

[74proii]

There is no problem with obtaining stock MII components. They were hacked apart to get the suspension mostly by people totally clueless that they cannot use the the cut out cross member. The geometry problem is based on the original 13.75 springs, vs aftermarket 12" MII Type suspensions. You've already read about that. a shop that that cannot figure MII and Fox parts is useless. Chicagowil is correct. Maybe get MGM's suspension he just replaced.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by RallySnake

The critical thing is that the pivot points of a steering rack must line up with the inner pivot points of the upper and lower A arms. If they don't, you will have very bad bump steer problems....RS

RS is spot on there. The rack must be mounted so that the pivot points are reasonably closely aligned horizontally and vertically with the inner pivots of the lower arms/wishbones.
Of equal importance, the tie-rods (rod-ends) need to be parallel - or close to it - to ensure zero (or minimal) bump steer.

Cheers,
Glen

[Roylerumble]

so a bit of background on the kit.

An older gentleman who is very into car building and built a few CR Cobra's had two un-assembled kits he purchased many years ago with the intention of building. He's from my city, but currently lives 7 hrs away and that is where the kits are. He's moving back, and put them up for sale. A guy who lives very close to me happened to buy one, but knows little to nothing about cars (not saying I'm a Chip Foose or anything). I ended up approaching the same shop to do some work that he asked to build his. He gave them the wrong info on the car, thinking it used a bunch of different components, making the shop feel they needed to do a bunch more work. They finally got the frame, inspected it, saw some of the parts, and realized it isn't going to be as complicated as initially thought. I've showed them all the info I've been able to gain from this group, which is tremendous, and they were very impressed. They still feel they need to do some stiffening and aren't too impressed with some of the welding on the frame. It felt so relieved to read their email and speak with them today. I'm heading over there tomorrow to chat, discuss parts, and come up with some plans. I truly am glad I came across this forum. I'm confident that with the knowledge and experience from the members here, I'll be able to build a very cool car with my son.

[CHANMADD]

I used a r man power steering rack from a 2000 Escort Sp ....correct width and ratio.....with a restrictor in the power steering pump it steers great all around....

[Roylerumble]

pics of the work the shop has done on the other cobra. The though by the owner and the shop is that the time it was going to take to make a bunch of changes to the factory components to allow for a strutless true coil over suspension, the old one had the old style mounting points for the upper control arm and didn't have the new angle for anti dive, difficulty finding a sway bar, etc... this was the best option.

The next battle is going to be the rear. The CR control arms aren't accounted for, so either an arm needs to be built, or scrap it all and go to a 4bar/link with a pan hard bar.

I was really hoping the project was going to be a simple assembly, but that is clearly no the case.

[Roylerumble]

crap, couldn't upload the pics...

[Roylerumble]