Viper V-10 in Classic Roadsters Kit.... - Page 2

Mike Braddock · #21 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 12:58 PM

JimP,

Have you considered purchasing a wrecked viper instead of waiting for the 2003 models to trickle out? If you plan carefully and are skilled at (or know people who are) custom fabrication, this should be a very exciting and unique project. Here's a nice EM with a viper engine owned by Rich:

http://home.earthlink.net/~bbentonsprint3/P1010009.JPG

If we could dig up his email he would be a great guy to speak with too. Good luck and keep us posted!

Mike

Dan Stryffeler · #22 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 01:18 PM

If you go with the Viper engine, watch the break-in procedure... I guess it's crucial to set the rings properly. I copied this from the viperclub.org website:

Break in depends on your comfort level, but I believe the manual recommends keeping the revs below around 2,000 for the first 1,000 or so miles. Wait till you've got full-scale reading on the oil pressure gauge before you start moving. It's a good idea to change the oil after the first 1000 miles after taking delivery. For the oil change interval it's recommend to do so every 3,000 if you do a lot of stop and go driving.
One big ‘gotcha’ not seen in the manual is when these cars are breaking in they dislike idling in traffic. The car heats up considerably and you can feel the exhaust temperature through the side of the car. You may want to stay away from situations where you might be sitting at idle or in traffic during the first 2,000 or so miles.

Dan

Mr.Fixit · #23 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 01:24 PM

keep it below 2000 rpm for 1000 miles, how? Those 1800 rpm upshifts gotta be worse on the motor, making it work really hard with low rpm, detonating and such.

Dan Stryffeler · #24 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 01:55 PM

Not sure why they claim that, I saw the same thing in a Road & Track on buying a used Viper. If the rings don't seat properly, I guess you may be in for a big $$$$ rebuild down the road. It's also contrary to what most Viper owners, (or us for that matter), want to do when we first get'em on the road - have fun and light'em up.

Just passing on what I've read...

Dan

GeorgiaSnake · #25 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 02:27 PM

I think it would be cool but it will still sound like a UPS truck. What's up with the Viper exhaust?

If you want high tech modern why not the new cobra motor in the Mustang? Light, powerful, smog legal etc.

Sizzler · #26 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flipper35
The Viper is also heavier than a Cobra by several hundred pounds. Jim is getting a more powerful engine than the used car and it's going in a lighter car. Two plusses in my book. Of course I have a biased opinion on this Mopar thing anyway.

Of course, the Viper is constructed a little more robustly, and has a few more added safety features that are actually worthwhile in case of accident: like side door beams and a crumble zone up front...

Depends on your viewpoint; if minimum size/weight for racing is important, than Cobra with largest engine that allows for best weight allocation is the way to go; if cruising amongst the increasly oblivious masses on today's roads is your dream, then a little more weight and a little more safety-emphasis in the design/structure may be the deciding factor.

It really, always, comes down to what's your goal/desire/wants.

Just an opinion

need4speed · #27 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 06:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by JimP
[b]Sizzler....

.... Also shelby has done alot of things with Ford and Mopar. Don't know of any connections with Chevy...

FYI - The quote below was taken from the Shelby American web site. Although not really a Chevy connection, Olds is still a GM product and close enough. Of course I am not recommending this as an alternative since it is only about 320HP and pales in comparision to the V10.

"The Shelby Series 1 is powered by a specially-modified aluminum Oldsmobile Aurora V8 with DOHC and
4 valves per cylinder. "

JimP · #28 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeorgiaSnake
If you want high tech modern why not the new cobra motor in the Mustang? Light, powerful, smog legal etc.

As far as I know Ford Racing isn't selling this engine. That's part of the problem. If Ford made an equivalent of the LS1/LS6 or the Viper V10, I may not be bringing this topic up.

need4speed:

Thanks for the GM link to shelby on the Shelby 1. He finally got a GM engine into one of his cars! Didn't he talk to GM first about engines for the original Cobra, they turned him down and he then had to settle with Ford?

Excaliber · #29 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 07:28 PM

A Viper V-10 in a Cobra is a PERFECT idea! I'm still disgusted with Shelby for "hooking up" with Olds for the Series 1. And driving a Viper is NO WAY the same thing as driving a Cobra. I DID consider buying a Viper instead of a Cobra, but they are NOT the same. Close cousins maybe!

Cobra is: Mom, apple pie, baseball, hot dogs,,,it's an American ICON. It's so totally over the top "special" nothing else even comes close. Viper is that guy wearing the "gold chain" around his neck, looks good, kinda cool, but your not sure he's "down home friendly".

Perhaps like a Ferrari or Lambo or Viper or Vette, a little intimidating? A cobra? People feel welcome, friendly, no gold chain here, a nice comfy "sweater" kind of feel that says, "Everyone welcome, THIS is the peoples car". Young, old, male, female,,,tell me WHO doesn't like a Cobra? It's appeal is universal, it is a LEGEND without peer. Replica or original, ordinary people don't care, what they see is a very COOL car!

Ernie

cobrashoch · #30 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 07:38 PM

Mr fixit - yours is a very good question about the latest thinking that really can't be answered to easy on this board. The Viper engine was originally concieved as a joint effort between Chrysler and Lamborghini. It's real problem has always been that it's had to be tuned back a bit to make it a little less powerfull so Chrysler could warranty the drivetrain. (read- trannys) The new Vipers reflect new drivetrain changes along with a milder but bigger engine. There are several places that "wake up" a Viper motor to around the 700hp level or even more led by the famous Hennessey twin turbos. Most guys that I have talked to that "play" with Vipers change a chip and do some exaust work, said to be good for about 100hp+. All of that for about 350$ and a blown warranty!
There's MUCH more here to talk over as to the hows and whys this is so, but unfortunately this a poor place to have that sort of rap. Besides, D.V. has more experience than I on this one. Maybe a Viper forum can be better served.
cobrashock

Aussie Mike · #31 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 07:48 PM

Re modern engine technology: Aren't most of the current crop of F1 cars running V10 configurations?

Something about the best piton velocity/diameter vs volumetric eficiency or something like that? I'm no expert but those F1 guys are on the cutting edge of engine development. They must have some reason for going V10?

Cheers

cobrashoch · #32 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 08:16 PM

JimP - are you sure that the 5.4 supercharged lightning motor can't be had?

To clearify why Viper motors sound odd. They have a deliberate primary and secondary balance mismatch at the crankshaft that gives a torque gain over a primarly balanced engine. Most V6's have similar issues and advantages but on a V10 there are more pistons going up and down to help smooth things out. If you pay attention to the various V6's out there you will hear their own distinct sounds too.

AussieMike- Different animals those formula engines are. Not even close.

Cobrashock

Double Venom · #33 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 08:17 PM

Wow!

What can I say? I don't think our first DV had this much discussion!

Jim as I think I explained to you before, maybe not, but this is what we do. Build custom Cobras, build the ultimate custom Cobra, calling them DV's or Double Venom's.

I will tell you that you will have to do major mod's to the frame rails for the T56 and the starter to fit.

The weight of the Viper engine is 711 lbs. Keep in mind this includes the entire front end of the motor, right to the fan belt and power steering pump. It also includes the bell housing, flywheel AND clutch. (And the shipping container that has to weight 30 lbs!)

Easily 200 lbs lighter than a 460 SVO aluminum head crate motor. (460 SVO with flywheel, aluminum heads, aluminum intake and nothing more up front than a water pump cover is 690 lbs.)

How many we have built is a company secret, but I will tell you, it is simply "mulitple" units.

Break in: Yup that is exactly what and how DODGE tells you how to break in the motor. However, each his own. I had less than 200 miles on mine and we hit the dragstrip. When we tore the motor down last spring there was none, nadda, zip visible wear on any parts. (other than the crank and the bearings we fried doing a 1.3G skid pad test at TRC)

Speaking of the Crank....Mr Fixit, they are billet cranks. Thought you might like to know.

JimP, if you are ready for a new motor now, let me know I can get you that motor.

If you want to wait for the '03 motor, there are many, many changes over the Gen. 2 motor. The most obvious is the intake and single throttle body.

Again if anyone wants to hear what they sound like, simply go to the DVSF webside and click on the video.

I don't know if it's just the EFI factor, the V-10 factor or a combination of both, but this motor hits max. torque in what seems an, "instant mode". No other motor I have ever built or driven winds up as fast!

With zero concern for weight, the original DV comes in, curb weight with full tank at 2783. With a 190 driver the car balances "X" dead center.

Are you ready for a DV ?

DV...Really exciting things are happening for the DVSF III !

COBRA427 · #34 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 09:37 PM

Jim,
It won't matter, any engine you use other than a Ford will be looked down upon by all the Cobra purists out there. Since most of our Cobras are replicas, I feel you should use whatever motor you want, regardless of whatever anyone may say or feel. Yes, putting in a Viper power plant is different and will get you a lot of attention if that's what you are looking for. Other than that, why would anyone want to put such a large and heavy motor in a Cobra when any V8 could make the same power? I'm sure parts for it are not inexpensive, and the sound of the exhaust sure is not what one expects to hear from a Cobra. I too am like you, and wanted a high tech engine. I decided to use a custom built modified LS6, which is small, lightweight all aluminum 346ci with 475hp and 480lbs torque all that plus more for about 9grand, including computer, wire harness, starter, shipping and insurance. My builder is located in Michigan, if you're interested, e-mail me and i'll give you more info. Did you see the Motor Trend piece on TV comparing the Viper and the ZO6? There was hardly any difference in performance between the two. Good luck which ever way you decide.

just my 2 cents worth

need4speed · #35 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 12:02 AM

Excaliber,

Who knows, perhaps Shelby got the Olds Aurora idea for the Series 1 from their use in IRL? Not a bad motor technologically speaking but I was also surprised when I found out that it was under the hood. Maybe someday in the distant future somebody will bring the Firebirds back with a Ford power just to get even... ;-)

JimP · #36 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 09:58 AM

Ok, this question is for anyone who has the answer and it's mostly in response to COBRA427's post.

What is the weight difference between a comparably equipped LS1/LS6 and the Viper V10? How about V10 compared to a small block (iron) engine with aluminum heads?

DV indicated that a Viper crate engine complete (All accessories, AC compressor, Belt, Power steering pump, clutch bellhousing) was 711 shipping weight including crate and all accessories 711lbs -30lb (est crate, probably heavier) = 680lbs with lots of stuff on it. LS1 is shows as 390lbs out of crate weight without any accessories or clutch/bellhousing. Assuming the engines are made similar (both completely aluminum) and that weight would increase by cubic inches if we compare 350ci at 390lbs then at 488ci we get 544lbs for a bare Viper engine. Would the accessories/clutch/bellhousing/starter weigh 140lbs to make up the difference? I think it would be fairly close.

An Iron block engine compared to an aluminum engine is about 80lbs more for the iron block. So 390+80=470lbs for iron block engine compared to 544 for Viper engine.

So using these really accurate numbers (sarcasum) one could assume that the weight difference between an LS1/LS6 and the Viper V-10 is about 160lbs and the difference between an Iron block small block V8 is 80lbs.

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare HP. It's much more accurate to compare cubic inches. HP is variable based on cubic inches and the Viper engine HP will go up dramatically without adding any more weight.

I would like to get some firm numbers. DV - you've built alot of cars, can you compare finished weights of similar cobras with different engines? That may be a more accurate way of determining how much a viper engine adds to the weight of the car. Is my math anywhere near the ballpark?

flipper35 · #37 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 12:24 PM

If you look beyond the peak hp/torque numbers, the V-10 has gobs of torque anywhere. On the tele, MT said the 0-60 difference was 1/2 second. Comparing sport ute's that isn't much of a difference. 4 second cars are a little different. I would bet that John Lenginfelter (SP) could masage a great deal of power out of the chevy motor if price really is no issue. But then a Lethal Viper puts out 700+ ft/lbs from 1500rpm on up. HP is torque x rpm / 5250. Way more average HP.
Of course I am not a purist and don't care what powers anyones Cobra. I like the one in justa6's car as well as DV's cars. Get the motor you like and fits YOUR needs. Then have fun.

Double Venom · #38 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 03:12 PM

Jim,

It seems our DV's, built for the street usually run right at 200 lbs above a "standard" small block equipped CR's.

But, we install the best of the best as standard equipment. The full custom dash, heavier suspension components, a full width 4 point roll bar 13" brakes, etc., etc. This alone adds extra weight to the car.

But, remember the balance is almost perfect and IS easily adjusted.

By the way, that 711 lbs. for the motor also also included the A/C pump AND the starter! When we were going through the block, it was ridiculously easy for me to walk around the shop carrying the "empty" 10 cyl. block by one hand!

Now the crank is a complete different story!

DV

Aussie Mike · #39 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 05:43 PM

390lbs sounds about right for the LS1. The crate motor comes with everything except the starter and alternator (Air conditioning? We don't need no stinking air conditioning).

I'm putting the LS1 in my Classic Revival and expect the whole thing to weigh in @ around 2200lbs (possibly less). Not sure how this will affect the weight bias but light weight is good regardless. GT40s and most mid engine sports cars have a more rearward weight bias than a Cobra and this doesn't seem to hurt their performance.

680lbs, from memory that's about the weight of an iron head BB Chev with no accessories. It would hurt a lot if you dropped one on your toe. Remember it's easier to put HP in than it is to take weight out.

Guys down here are getting a very drivable 430HP out of the LS1 with only a change of cam, springs & retainers, good headers and a Motec ECU (all on a stock botom end). With a change of connecting rods and some head work they are getting nearly 500HP. That's 1.25 HP per pound out of the engine without even looking at a blower or turbo.

All this is probably irelevant when it comes to a Cobra unless you are a serious racer. The Viper V10 is going to have a whole lot more "WOW" value when you open the hood.

Cheers

justa6 · #40 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 06:04 PM

I'm sitting here reading all these letters about various engines and weights but are you guys including "Scattershield's and block savers"? You DO run scattershield bellhousings right? Blocksaver?

Reason I say this is my Johnex is a pretty simple kit and I'm using a V6 motor with aluminum heads that are so light you can pick them up with two fingers, Aluminum intake and my car weighs right around 2350 with a little over half a tank of gas, two fire extingushers and no spare or driver... I figured the motor without the McCloud bell housing and block saver weighs right around 375 lbs with alternator, dry sump oil pump, mini starter on it.

It would be interesting to weigh a lot of our cars on the same scale. Maybe next years Run & Gun would be the place. I'm sure Gateway Int. has scales.

Regards,