4 spd vs 5 spd pros and cons - Page 4

Bernica · #1 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 03:56 PM

Just Google "TKO Shifting Problems"

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...600%20problems

I am sure they are a great trans and certainly have won the favor of many.

I'll just stick with old school and plod away...

AC Ventura · #2 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 04:13 PM

Oh dear, now I have no idea. I'm a traditionalist and to me having the original layout means a lot, even if nobody else asks. However, I'm not misguided enough to build in weighty deficiencies for the sake of historical accuracy. Consequently I'm just about to have built a std stroke but alloy block, street spec 427 FE, kicking out about 500/500. I'd intended to nail on a Toploader (ideally David Kee alloy case if ever available) big input, wide ratios and replace my existing Salisbury 3.54, with a 2.88. I thought that would be a good combination for moderately economical 70-80 mph intercontinental cruising and still have brutal enough acceleration to succeed in competitive mountain pass sections, like the 48 hairpin Stelvio below. Given the remit, have I got the wrong recipe then?

Bernica · #3 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 04:32 PM

Well, you certainly wouldn't need a 5th gear there!

AC Ventura · #4 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernica

Well, you certainly wouldn't need a 5th gear there!

No, but we have to get there and back!

DanEC · #5 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 04:41 PM

Even with a wide ratio Toploader, I think a 2.88 rear is going to be an issue. To get to 500 HP you are going to need at least a 235 to 240 duration cam and IMO you are going to have problems with starts. It will manage it with careful, slow starts and some clutch slipping, but I'm pretty sure neither you or your car will be happy. I have heard of good results with a 3.07 and WR Toploader although a 3.31 and WR Toploader is more commonly used. Additionally, the higher speed you go with the rear end, the greater the rpm drop between gears is going to be. Shifting at moderate rpm to the next gear is going to result in a big drop in revs. Based on your desire for a high speed rear and the ability to do battle in the hills and twistys, a 5 speed may be a better match for you.

RodKnock · #6 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC Ventura

Oh dear, now I have no idea. I'm a traditionalist and to me having the original layout means a lot, even if nobody else asks. However, I'm not misguided enough to build in weighty deficiencies for the sake of historical accuracy. Consequently I'm just about to have built a std stroke but alloy block, street spec 427 FE, kicking out about 500/500. I'd intended to nail on a Toploader (ideally David Kee alloy case if ever available) big input, wide ratios and replace my existing Salisbury 3.54, with a 2.88. I thought that would be a good combination for moderately economical 70-80 mph intercontinental cruising and still have brutal enough acceleration to succeed in competitive mountain pass sections, like the 48 hairpin Stelvio below. Given the remit, have I got the wrong recipe then?

Dan is right. You will not be happy with a 2.78 WR Toploader and a 2.88 final gear ratio. Starting will be an issue.

blykins · #7 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 05:42 PM

Nah, I wouldn't change to a 2.88 either. I'd keep the 3.54 and let it sing a little with the Toploader or swap to a TKO. As Dan pointed out, if you want a little cam, the 2.88 will protest.

You need to discuss that with your engine builder.....

AC Ventura · #8 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

Nah, I wouldn't change to a 2.88 either. I'd keep the 3.54 and let it sing a little with the Toploader or swap to a TKO. As Dan pointed out, if you want a little cam, the 2.88 will protest.

You need to discuss that with your engine builder.....

Yep Brent, we will do just that..............

cycleguy55 · #9 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Dan is right. You will not be happy with a 2.78 WR Toploader and a 2.88 final gear ratio. Starting will be an issue.

No problems getting mine rolling, even with a 2.75:1 FDR. OTOH, I have a mild 460 CID and a 3.28:1 first gear (Richmond Street 5-Speed). Obviously this would be a much different situation if the cam had significantly more duration and less low-end grunt.

RodKnock · #10 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

No problems getting mine rolling, even with a 2.75:1 FDR. OTOH, I have a mild 460 CID and a 3.28:1 first gear (Richmond Street 5-Speed). Obviously this would be a much different situation if the cam had significantly more duration and less low-end grunt.

You have a large advantage with that 1st gear in terms of torque multiplication:

You
3.28x2.75=9.02

AC Ventura
2.78x2.88=8.00

Generally, you would want to be somewhere at least in the 9's. 8 is just not enough for good starts, without wearing out your clutch.

AC Ventura · #11 (**permalink**) 05-07-2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Generally, you would want to be somewhere at least in the 9's. 8 is just not enough for good starts, without wearing out your clutch.

Can I just clear something up?

I thought the optimal 1st gear ratio was 8.2:1 which is the w/r t/l with 2.78 X 2.88. The very thing I had at the beginning. But Dan said it would bog down on take off, and others agreed.

So now it seems somewhere in the 9s is correct, which is the w/r t/l 2.78 but with the 3.31 or 3.54 rear end. Alternatively, the 2.87 TKO 600 with the 3.31 which makes 9.5 and has a choice of 5ths, .62 or .82.

If 9s are correct, I have to reluctantly agree, the TKO has the same ratios 1-4 as the w/r t/l but with the choice of a 70+ cruising. Hmmmm....

So what is the target for 1st please, 8.2 or something beginning with a 9,

Bernica · #12 (**permalink**) 05-05-2016, 08:06 PM

Nice car. Just can't quite figure out the bumper jack thing. Not sure what that is and if they are even on straight though. I think you can only get that color from Starbucks!

Thor maine · #13 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 05:50 AM

Yum , FrappaLappaChino!

patrickt · #14 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 06:12 AM

That car's not beige. This is beige.

DanEC · #15 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

That car's not beige. This is beige.

Is that one of those self-diving cars at speed?

patrickt · #16 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanEC

Is that one of those self-diving cars at speed?

I have her dialed in to the extent where she will literally drive herself.

wkooiman · #17 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 08:49 PM

Wow 6 pages...

I've had 3 top loaders, 2 T5s, a TKO, and a Viper 6-speed.

The top loaders definitely felt different. They shifted butter smooth, and the shifter just feels different. The T5s and the Viper 6-speed also shifted butter smooth, but the shifter is different. Maybe the fulcrum is lower, so you feel more like the shifter is sliding rather than tilting.

Having said that, I prefer a 5-speed. I drove from Miami to Houston last year, and I've made several trips to Orlando. An extra gear would be nice.

BTW, the TKO was in a 428 Mustang, and it did not shift smoothly. It was tight and very difficult to shift quickly. That was a long time ago - well before I knew about the shifting upgrades.

Bernica · #18 (**permalink**) 05-06-2016, 09:04 PM

Although we have it pretty much here, sounds like someone should just set up a poll. I don't know how to do it...

mdross1 · #19 (**permalink**) 05-08-2016, 03:44 AM

Just one more way to make our cars unique. When first building my car contemplated the final drive with a newly rebuilt TopLoader behind a BB decided on a 3:55 ratio. Around town it was great but highway got old fast. Next choice was a 5 speed Tremec with 3:70 gear which turned out to be the best of all worlds for me. Once the Tremec wore in a little it became silky smooth I could not be more pleased.