Contemporary Cobra Watts Linkage

[RICK LAKE]

azfordman What Mic Has redesigned may work very well. The problem is what are the limits of the setup. 10 years ago ONLY a few cars where making real 400 HP at the rear wheels. Today I have to include myself in this group. The vette people had the same rap up problem in the vettes. Gulstrand ( I have the name spelled wrong and can't find the article at this time) designed a 4 link with high low bars to the outter support housing. It kept the wheels in location but had a binding issue around turns at high "g". Wheel hop seams to be the biggest problem with cobras and IRS setups. Rick L. Ps the failures of the contemp system was the pivot bolt snapping off at the pivot arm and in the middle of an event at 100 mph in turns. All that was needed was a larger shoulder bolt or a high grade.

[Ralphy]

Rick the name is Guldstrand. Is this the setup you saw? This is designed for a C3.

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

azfordman What Mic Has redesigned may work very well. The problem is what are the limits of the setup. 10 years ago ONLY a few cars where making real 400 HP at the rear wheels. Today I have to include myself in this group. The vette people had the same rap up problem in the vettes. Gulstrand ( I have the name spelled wrong and can't find the article at this time) designed a 4 link with high low bars to the outter support housing. It kept the wheels in location but had a binding issue around turns at high "g". Wheel hop seams to be the biggest problem with cobras and IRS setups. Rick L. Ps the failures of the contemp system was the pivot bolt snapping off at the pivot arm and in the middle of an event at 100 mph in turns. All that was needed was a larger shoulder bolt or a high grade.

[RICK LAKE]

Ralphy That's it. It does work very well. All new vettes used this basic setup for rearends. No pivot, just straight arms to the rearend. I know it changes the rear alignment a little but unless you are a PRO racer and driver you will never know. Rick L. Ps custom shocks where also used over the stock setup ones, Koni's.

[badrich]

When I first purchased my machine, I started replacing key fasteners. Now, all my suspension fasteners are at least grade 8, many are from ARP. Cheap insurance. Rich

[mickmate]

It's all good discussion and sharing of info/resources. There are a few threads on the bolts breaking on watts set ups. If a bolt is breaking it is obviously because it is stressed. I didn't like the positions I saw for mounting points as they showed bind on my CAD drawing and had uneven radius rod lengths. I was trying to find the pictures of another guys CCX who moved his mounts to similar positions to what I've used to correct the bolt breaking problem he had. If I can run that up and down by hand that easily there is obviously no bind. The most resistance came from the swaybar bushings which is nothin! The set up I've shown uses 4 of 3/8 bolts to hold the mount, a 5/8 bolt through the top of that and a 1/2" at both ends.

[azfordman]

Thanks for the feedback. I figured I would throw that question out here and have the info on the forum. It really does look like an interesting set up. Hey Mick...have you got it on the road yet?

[mickmate]

Almost, have you got a test pilot available?

[PDUB]

Nick, Are you sure that the Jag hub carriers are capable of handling the stress associated with carrying this newloading? I'm not saying they won't take the punishment, just wondering about it.

Otherwise, it looks GREAT!

[mickmate]

Good question the top is a conical shape very sound casting with 3/8 wall. The bolts are screwed into steel inserts in that. I'll be testing it confidently ;-)

[67JET]

Thanks for the heads up about this thread mickmate. I am interested in the set-up you have created. I ended up with the bar that goes from the frame to the front of the lower arm on the rearend. I got it from CWI. It helped alot but i know we can make it better/stronger/faster. It just takes money and time.

[RICK LAKE]

Mike mate Duanne has a link setup for ERA's with basicly the same Idea as yours. He has a shock setup like the older mustangs for upper and lower control. This was for the solid axle cars. Rapup was so bad and the guys where breaking rears like crazy if you drag raced. The problem I saw was the angle the shock was on and how much control it realy had laying at a 70 degree angle? Rick L.

[decooney]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Mike mate Duanne has a link setup for ERA's with basicly the same Idea as yours. He has a shock setup like the older mustangs for upper and lower control. This was for the solid axle cars. Rapup was so bad and the guys where breaking rears like crazy if you drag raced. The problem I saw was the angle the shock was on and how much control it realy had laying at a 70 degree angle? Rick L.

Rick,
I found those last two sets and the install zert kit I had stored away, BTW. I was in my attic moving some stuff around from my former WSCB event bins, low and behold there was the box with the last two kits in it for the ERA. I had forgotten I brought it to the last WSCB to show a few people who wanted to see it and it was trapped in the bottom of one of those old bins!. As for ongoing use of this kit, my final assessment over the years of use with my car is the setup definitely helps, but it has not completely eliminated wheel hop under any type of situation if I just jump on it full on. I just don't do that. However, as compared to before the kit - I CAN get on it much harder now and it does put the power to the ground much better with more confidence than without it. The only thing I would change with my existing setup would be to go to a tad stiffer shock if I changed anything. Duane

[RICK LAKE]

Decooney Duane still want the kit. Send a private e-mail with info and how to get it. Rick L.

[Dazecars]

Not to reinvent the wheel but here is an idea...


First of all I want to be completely honest, I do not have a Cobra, I have a Mustang, but I am putting a Jag IRS in it so this post is very interesting to me.


Second, mickmate, the system you have created is slick and I may be very interested in buying one and adapting it to your application. However while thinking about it and upper watts link in general, what if a person used newer hubs??


I have a set of X308 hubs that I am not using for my Mustang but have for a different application g because I want the outboard disc brakes for that project. What if a person took a set of these hubs, ditched the brake parts, and used them with the inboard disc brakes and then used the caliper mounting tabs and the ABS sensor hole as a mounting location for the upper watts bracket??



The hubs are interchangable as long as you use newer half shafts so it would be a fairly simple swap. thoughts???

[mickmate]

As you know Rick shock angle makes a lot of difference. I saw his set up and see the theory but to me it's like a steering damper where you're damping but still allowing movement. In this case it's a movement and direction you don't want. The steering dampers have also been accused of masking other problems.

[badrich]

A few years ago I added the Contemporary Watts Linkages in the stock location. I had to mill the billet hub carriers a little since they rubbed and needed a little more clearance. Everything seems to work just fine, but all I have done is autocross my machine. In a couple of weeks I will be doing a little drag racing at SAAC-35 and will test my setup a little more. I will be using street tires, so I presume the stress won't be as nasty as if I were to use drag slicks. Wish me luck. Rich

[Ralphy]

Daze nice to see you here! Try using the search feature for more info. Lotta Stang guys here also.

Ralphy

[PDUB]

Seems as though I read about an outboard brake conversion for the jag based on newer jag parts that were interchangeable from another newer model... I think it was from the jag lovers site, but I can't quite remember. Anyone else ever see that? What was it?

[Dazecars]

Originally Posted by PDUB

Seems as though I read about an outboard brake conversion for the jag based on newer jag parts that were interchangeable from another newer model... I think it was from the jag lovers site, but I can't quite remember. Anyone else ever see that? What was it?

any modern Hub from the XJ40 through the X300 and X308 will work. The hibs are the same on all those cars, but the calipers and rotors for the XJ40 are designed for solid rotors similar to the ones found inboard. The X300 and X308 rotors are vented for better cooling and need a bigger caliper.

As far as other parts, if it is an XJ40 you only need the stub axle as the XJ40 and older rears use the same u-joint. If you get an X300/308 stub axle you will need the entire half shaft as the u-joints are different. Other than that the only other difference is the diamiter of the hub to wishbone pin. As was mentioned already in this thread you either need to sleeve the wishbones and use the newer pin or use different bearings and the older pin. The difference in pin size is only .05" and the newer type pin rides in a sleeve that fits in the hub bearings so a person could probably have that sleeve machined out to accept the older stile pin. The other option and the one I will be doing is I am machining som UHMW bushings to replace the bearings. they will fit in to the newer hub and accept the larger stile pin. here are some pictures I took of some XJ6 parts compared to my X308 parts

Here is the modern hub with a bolt pattern adapter



Here is the hubs side by side





here is the half shafts, old and new



new hub on an old wishbone




I have researched this a lot, please let me know if I can help further

[PDUB]

Thanks for the info Daze... the newer stub axle looks pretty whimpy! Is it up to high HP applications? Looks like they changed the splines on it... or am I missing something? I'll send a PM for more info. Thanks again.