Follow up on ERA717

[fdjake]

Same here Bill....

I'm not trying to break your beans here....But that motor needs more than a gasket set.

As far as leaving the spark plug out too long.....The car was driven to the shop, allowed to cool and the scope was dropped in immediately AFTER the plug was pulled. I stood there and watched the entire process. The walls are PITTED, not surface rust from moisture...This is from WATER sitting for long periods of time. I will also add that the shop owner had 6 427 FE's and 9 428 FE's in his shop from all over the country. This is a VERY well respected, acknowledged master FE engine builder with a full dynoshop and machine shop on site. NOTHING gets farmed out. Millions of dollars worth of computer controlled machine equipment. This wasn't some bumpkin with a lathe on his bench.

No need to drop the pan if you can see the pitting through a spark plug hole...Once you see it, there's only ONE FIX....R E B U I L D

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by fdjake

Same here Bill....

I'm not trying to break your beans here....But that motor needs more than a gasket set.

As far as leaving the spark plug out too long.....The car was driven to the shop, allowed to cool and the scope was dropped in immediately AFTER the plug was pulled. I stood there and watched the entire process. The walls are PITTED, not surface rust from moisture...This is from WATER sitting for long periods of time. I will also add that the shop owner had 6 427 FE's and 9 428 FE's in his shop from all over the country. This is a VERY well respected, acknowledged master FE engine builder with a full dynoshop and machine shop on site. NOTHING gets farmed out. Millions of dollars worth of computer controlled machine equipment. This wasn't some bumpkin with a lath on his bench.

No need to drop the pan if you can see the pitting through a spark plug hole...Once you see it, there's only ONE FIX....R E B U I L D

Well, just in case, send me the name and number (along with who inspected the engine) of the shop when you get a chance.

Bill S.

[fdjake]

Will do.

I will tell you that at first we thought we had it nailed, just a bad gasket set. Those cylinder walls looked great, and the leak down numbers were perfect. It took us a few minutes of carefully looking to find the pitting. But once we saw it, there was no mistaking it. I know it was on the passenger side bank.

I'm sorry if I put a damper on your celebration Bill. I almost didn't write this. But then I thought the info could save you some time and $$$$ in the long run.

I'll shoot you an email with the Engine builders name and number. He'll remember the car, he LOVED it!!!! And the OWNER of the shop did the inspection himself. He also took me for a full tour of his facility. It was more than impressive. It's a race engine shop. Lots of high end equipment run by a guy who is as honest as the day is long.

Enjoy your trip....That car is in great hands and you'll have it squared away in no time.

[patrickt]

Bill, just drive it for a thousand miles. If it burns a quart or less then it's fixed. Most of us around here would take you at your word if you said that it passed that test.

[D111]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Bill, just drive it for a thousand miles. If it burns a quart or less then it's fixed. Most of us around here would take you at your word if you said that it passed that test.

exactly, bill just get out there today is a beautiful day,click off a hundred miles or so and you'll you have a very good idea if its fixed proof is in the pudding.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by D111

exactly, bill just get out there today is a beautiful day,click off a hundred miles or so and you'll you have a very good idea if its fixed proof is in the pudding.

Working on the 69 GT500 today so it does not get jealous of all the attention I've been lavishing on the ERA , selling one of the Miatas (buyer due here at 12 noon), packing for the trip, oh yeah, trying to figure out what we are doing tomorrow for our anniversary seeing that we were supposed to be in Florida this week (postponed due to circumstances beyond my control).


Bill S.

[fdjake]

Mason's Racing Engines & General Automotive

Bob Mason

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Bill, just drive it for a thousand miles. If it burns a quart or less then it's fixed. Most of us around here would take you at your word if you said that it passed that test.

I'll get back to the car and do just that, checking oil consumption (draining the 20W50 and going with a 10W40 in the process as suggested by my engine guy) every 100 miles and documenting it all. As you already know, this is not my first FE , so we'll see what we will see when I get back.



Bill S.

[vector1]

If the pitting is far enough down the cylinder, it won't show on a leakdown test and compression will still be good and it should run fine, although it might still have the need for some oil consumption.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by vector1

If the pitting is far enough down the cylinder, it won't show on a leakdown test and compression will still be good and it should run fine, although it might still have the need for some oil consumption.

Don't all FE motors use "some" oi by design l

Heck, even my 69 GT500 marks it's territory every once in a while


Bill S.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Don't all FE motors use "some" oi by design l

Heck, even my 69 GT500 marks it's territory every once in a while


Bill S.

FWIW, my FE uses a quart every 1400 miles or so. If yours used double that I still would view that as acceptable.

[CHANMADD]

The initial exclusion of a PCV, setup was part of the problem........the intake was the rest.....
A small amout of pitting will not cause severe oil consumption........I am surprised to see that on such an expensive engine , none took the time to port match the intake to the heads.....that' s good few hp free....?..........Hey........when you sell a car .....remain as happy as you were when you thought that you..were putting the buyer together........sorry its the truth.......been selling cars for a long time.....sellers remorse.............don't worry.....be happy......move on......

[fdjake]

No sellers remorse here. I drove that car for a year and sold it for exactly what I had into it. How many ERA owners can say that??? The guy I purchased the car from had over $70K into it.

I replaced the car with a CAV GT40!!! A/C, a roof, and HEAT, it's a race car for the street!! My driving season DOUBLED vs the Cobra.

The GT40 has a nice long legged 5 speed, it turns about 2000 rpm at 75 mph vs the Cobra's just under 4000 rpm with the antique 4 speed. (The car was miserable to drive for any length of time on anything other than secondary roads) I could have changed the rear end gearing...But it would have been more $$$$. Same story for swapping out a Tremac, more $$$$$.

I've had dozens of exotic cars over the years. The ERA was a nice car but it REALLY needed a 5 speed trans and the engine had major issues. I could have spent the money to make it right, OR....I could disclose everything, sell it, and re-cover every penny I had in it. Once the Engine Cylinder Wall Pitting was identified it was an easy decision.

Time to move on and UP!

[CHANMADD]

I wish I had a gt40........I did, but sold it when I left SA........maybe a coupe .........

[domenic saia]

bill, good for you.. i had a problem with "mr. gasket" gaskets once..never again keep me updated about your era cobra. regards domenic

[madmaxx]

Here a little story. I had one of the 99 Miata that needed a new engine, thrust bearing issue. Actually it had no issue but the idiot dealer did not know how to check endplay and in the end I got a new mazda engine. The car had 30 days left on the warranty I had owned it 4 days so I ran it to the dealer to cover my asssss with this thrust bearing issue.

In the end I was trying to verify if they rebuilt an engine or it was new. I get it home and pull a spark plug and see RUST on the piston top and very very slight on cyldinder walls. I drove it about 2 miles. I storm back to the dealer telling them they jacked and they showed the bill from Mazda USA, shipping paper work blah blah blah. I go on their showroom open the hood of a new Miata, take out a spark plug as they watch and bang, rust everywhere, LOL!!!!!!!

I ask to see the old engine and I check the end play just to be a smart assss and it is .006" well within spec. I tell the mechanic you just replaced an engine for nothing. He mounted the dial indicator on the sway bar and pushed in the cluch, idiot checked the free play in the motor mounts and everything else. I checked the "new" engine which was not easy and it was .008" LOL.

Bottom line I have seen more rust in two new engines than I ever though possible. Sold the car years later and never burned a drop of oil between 5 k oil changes.

[fdjake]

NICE!!!

But PITTING on a cylinder wall and rust on top of a piston are 2 completely different things.

Believe me....NO ONE wanted that engine to just need an intake gasket more than ME.

But the REALITY of the situation is this...

The car used oil from day one.....A LOT of oil....1 qt every 100-150 miles. YES, I know FE engines ALL use some oil....But carrying a CASE of oil with you for 1200 miles of driving is NOT normal.

ERA apparently did a ****ty job replacing the intake gasket on the car according to Bill, they MAY have even installed the wrong gasket (again, according to Bill). ERA also apparently ORDERED and INSTALLED a "cheap carb that was too big for engine" once again, according to Bill.....BUT, when that car left ERA it wasn't bellowing smoke like it did when Bill purchased it and it ran great. Peter at ERA drove the car for a weekend AFTER they installed the new intake set.....Those newly installed gaskets SEALED initially, and dramatically reduced the SMOKING...Just as Bill has reported now that he did the same work ERA did.....BUT, Peter told me straight out....

"THE CAR IS STILL USING 1 QUART OF OIL EVERY 150 MILES.....Look, the car has NEW heads, NEW Valves and Seals, and now NEW intake gaskets, for it to be using THAT much oil....It's most likely a ring issue."

It should also be stated that ERA had the car for 2 MONTHS!!! They DROVE the car well over 400 miles to gauge the oil consumption.

I put 250 miles on the car the day it came back from ERA.....No excessive smoking but sure enough, it burned 1 qt of oil in 150 miles of driving. After driving the car for another month the intake gasket let go AGAIN and now the car smoked like a freight train.

At that point it went to Bob Mason at Mason's Racing Engines.....All this guy does is build race motors....ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.....He KNEW the intake gaskets were junk, but he wanted to see WHEN the car blew smoke...It should be mentioned that I told Bob straight out that I was NOT rebuilding this engine....I'd pay him to determine WHAT is wrong with it so I could pass that info along to the next owner. But I was NOT getting into a rebuild on THIS car....It just wasn't worth the time and effort for how I used the car. So Bob knew going in he was just looking for a cause.

He did a leak down on the car and the numbers were great.....But when he dropped that scope down the cylinders you could EASILY see areas of pitting....Pitting that was old enough and large enough that Bob said the motor may need to be SLEEVED and re-ringed....Bob had over a dozen FE engines at his shop at the time. He actually had a 427 side oiler on the DYNO that day.....He explained that with the depth of the pitting on this engine he would recommend sleeving and re-ringing. He also mentioned a gapless ring that had caused major oil consumption issues when used. But the cylinder wall issue would have to be dealt with first. Anyone re-ringing the engine would have to decide if boring it would work based on measurements or if sleeving would be the way to go once they got it apart.

Once again.....I was THERE during the entire inspection process...I've had numerous engines rebuilt and have restored everything from 65 Mustang GT's, 59 MGA's and numerous 911's. I knew what I was looking at when a cylinder wall goes from beautiful cross hatching to nasty DEEP pitting.

One more point here that everyone should consider....#717 is going to be sold some day....If I was a potential buyer....I would WANT this information from an owner that not only went to the original BUILDER of the car for an opinion, but also to a extremely well respected race engine builder with YEARS of FE engine building experience and a shop with 7 figures of equipment under one roof. BOTH came to the same conclusion.....The only difference was the REASON the rings were an issue....The scope said it all...No RING can SEAL a cylinder wall that has PITS in it.

Bill advised me "Don't be angry because I was mislead" That's an interesting statement coming from a guy that has now potentially solved a major engine problem with a gasket, a vacuum line, and what I guess is an EXPENSIVE 650 holley carb!!! (vs the "cheap Quick fuel carb" ERA ordered and installed when they MISLEAD ME)

Apparently ERA missed the PVC issue Bill found or they MISLEAD ME on that too.....I guess I was also mislead when Bob Mason HANDED me the scope cable and let me rotate the camera around the cylinder, and then my own EYES mislead me when that camera focused in on the caverns in the cylinder walls of that 428!!!

I love a good fish story.....But the REALITY is ERA nailed it from DAY ONE......Bob Mason nailed it and had VISUAL PROOF!!!

A gasket, some vacuum line, and a cheap Holley carb ain't taking you from 1 qt of oil every 150 miles to all fixed folks....Not happening...GREAT STORY THOUGH!!!

[patrickt]

One afternoon's driving will answer the question of whether it's fixed or not. Bill is hoping it is fixed; maybe it is fixed. But Bill will not try and fool people and then sell it to an unsuspecting mark.

[fdjake]

I never said he would....EVER.

I DO have a problem with someone claiming ERA mislead me or an expert race engine mechanic didn't know what he was doing. I love the BS about he should have dropped the pan first.....For WHAT??? So he could have CHARGED ME MORE for something that was visible by removing a SPARK PLUG???

Sh*T I guess we could have pulled the tranny too....and dropped the rear end out of it....Pulled the heads off....

THE CYLINDERS ARE PITTED FROM WATER.......PITTED....NOT RUSTED....NOT DIRTY......P I T T E D!

[Chaplin]

How did the water get in there to cause the pitting in the first place? Was this an old block that wasn't rebuilt properly the first time around or did you loose a head gasket and fill a cylinder with water?