Follow up on ERA717

mrmustang · #1 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 07:20 AM

So I had a few minutes this morning and finally pulled the valve covers off of ERA717 to have a look see after doing a compression test (all cylinders within 3-4lbs of each other) and shoving a video bore scope down the spark plug holes and finding nothing really out of place....

Besides a lack of a PCV system when I brought the car home (since added as I ordered two of everything by accident for my 69GT500

)

Anyone see a problem here

Going to pull the intake later this morning and see what else I find.....

Bill S.

DanEC · #2 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 08:02 AM

I guess the intake gasket is extruding into the valve cover area - not sealing anymore???

PeteF · #3 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 09:02 AM

How much manifold vacuum does it have at idle ? If low, could be leaking through intake gaskets, sucking oil in. Could check torque on intake manifold bolts also.

mrmustang · #4 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteF

How much manifold vacuum does it have at idle ? If low, could be leaking through intake gaskets, sucking oil in. Could check torque on intake manifold bolts also.

Never checked manifold pressure before I pulled the intake this AM, hoping it is just a bad intake gasket,

going to change that and the plugs and see if it stops burning/blowing oil. We shall see.

PeteF · #5 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 10:45 AM

Verify the spark plug heat range also. My plugs looked like that until I realized the previous owner had installed one step colder plugs. I installed the nominal heat range plug and they run much cleaner now.

mrmustang · #6 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 12:15 PM

Forgot to attach the main shot before

olddog · #7 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Going to change that and the plugs and see if it stops burning/blowing oil. We shall see.

Certainly the intake gasket can cause it to burn oil, but it would not cause it to blow oil out. If anything the gasket leak would act like an extra PCV connection.

I think you said you added a PCV to the engine, so hopefully that took care of the blowing out issue.

DanEC · #8 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 04:37 PM

Anxious to see how it turns out when you get it back together. Certainly looks like the gasket is compromised and it could have been sucking oil. I assume that is the intake path to the cylinder with the plug that keeps fouling?

madmaxx · #9 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 05:33 PM

Ultra cool, keep us up to date. Interested to see what u find. If my memory serves me right didn't era install the last intake Gasket with previous owner.

mrmustang · #10 (**permalink**) 08-15-2013, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmaxx

If my memory serves me right didn't era install the last intake Gasket with previous owner.

I have a copy of the bill for the carb and sidepipes which shows a MrGasket 59159 intake gasket (wrong for this application as it takes a MrGasket 202A per Dove tech support), as well as a cheap 750CFM DP quickfuel, which was too much carb for the car and washed the fuel down the cylinder walls......

I'll leave it at that........

Bill S.

mrmustang · #11 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 01:13 PM

Today's updates.

FELPRO 1247 is the proper intake gasket set up for this engine.

Heads have been cleaned up, intake has been cleaned up and installed. Waiting for the sealant (for those that do not know better you do not use the cork gaskets for the end seals) to cure a little while longer and will hopefully fire the engine back up this evening.........Then check to see whether it was truly just another bad gasket job, or whether I need to yank the motor and do the bottom end per the person who sold it to me

.

Bill S.

madmaxx · #12 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 02:14 PM

Heck, let it dry overnight. If compression was good than how could it be bottom end? I will laugh me asssss off if all it was intake gasket. How's the rest of the car?

mrmustang · #13 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Heck, let it dry overnight. If compression was good than how could it be bottom end? I will laugh me asssss off if all it was intake gasket. How's the rest of the car?

I'll jump for joy, then plan a little "extra something" for our 28th Anniversary this Sunday

Have a suspension "clunk" in the right rear, had the same thing happen on ERA188, so I am thinking it may be a simple bushing that needs replacement. I'll get to that once I get the motor bolted back together and running. Thought I was going to have a few weeks while the motor was out to deal with it, hoping now that it is not the case . I'll report back once the motor is running and I've put a few miles on it (might be Monday afternoon

).

Other than that, the car is as close to immaculate as one would hope for. In, out, underneath..........

Bill S.

mrmustang · #14 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 04:46 PM

And the survey says...

NO SMOKE ON START UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Distributor is off a tooth, but I'll deal with that in a week when I get back from my surprise trip. Same goes for the clunk in the suspension.

YAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

Bill S.

DanEC · #15 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 04:49 PM

Congratulations - sounds like a car well-bought.

madmaxx · #16 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 04:56 PM

Roflmao!!!!!! Fantastic! I have said it many times if you can't work on cars than avoid cobra's. hopefully the po knows this now. Kinda surprised the almighty ERA gods didn't know the correct gasket. Congrats on the anniversary!!

fdjake · #17 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 07:35 PM

The PO knows what the cylinders of that car look like from a Snap On bore scope.

I watched as a expert FE engine builder inserted that camera into each cylinder and rotated that motor full stroke for each one. A gasket set is NOT fixing the problem.

That inspection was done AFTER the boys at ERA attempted their "fix."

The issue was obvious....The motor needs to be re-built as stated in the ad.

mrmustang · #18 (**permalink**) 08-16-2013, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdjake

The PO knows what the cylinders of that car look like from a Snap On bore scope.

I watched as a expert FE engine builder inserted that camera into each cylinder and rotated that motor full stroke for each one. A gasket set is NOT fixing the problem.

That inspection was done AFTER the boys at ERA attempted their "fix."

The issue was obvious....The motor needs to be re-built as stated in the ad.

I'm not putting your FE guy down,but there are experts, and then their are experts, as my FE guy (who I have used for 27+ years) and I dropped the pan as well as checked the top of the pistons and cylinder walls with a bore scope like yours did through the spark plug opening. After we did our testing, and read the plugs (your expert did not see the broken gasket and fouled plug covered in oil on #2 and not say anything?

), and took the valve covers off and bore-scoped the top end (more looking for debris as none was in the pan), he suggested that a combination of the intake gasket(the bad gasket was glaring without ever pulling the intake) being bad, along with a lack of PCV set up as the issue(s). He is also the one who suggested dumping the cheap 750CFM Quickfuel Slayor series(which was dumping fuel on the top of the intake) carb and going to a simple 650CFM Holley DP (04777C) since the car is being driven on the street and not being drag raced every time it is driven. Turns out he was right, and for that he'll get more than just my thanks.

In closing, don't be angry because you were mislead, if you had just done your own compression and leak down tests, as well as pulled the pan, you would have known this as well.

Here is wishing you well, enjoy your GT40 replica.........

Bill S.

fdjake · #19 (**permalink**) 08-17-2013, 03:58 AM

I'm not mad at all...I'm just being honest.

My FE guy immediately mentioned the common issue of intake gaskets on FE engines. BUT....He took the time to FOLLOW me for a few miles while I ran the car through the gears to see exactly when it smoked....So, he did a leak down test of the passengers side bank of cylinders because (as you also stated) the majority of the smoke was coming from there. The motor had good leak down numbers. As your compression test confirmed. BUT...As you know, that doesn't mean everything is OK...So he ran the bore scope down. I stood NEXT to him as he scoped those cylinders. That fouled plug you have a picture of??? Take another look at that cylinder. You missed it.

Your expert missed the PITTING on the cylinder walls. It's there man...Recheck the passenger side cylinders CAREFULLY. Once my FE expert spotted the pitting on the cylinder walls there was no point in doing the work you just did....It's all coming back off to fix the real issue.

That motor is going to use 1 Qt of oil every 100-150 miles until that engine gets a rebuild.

ERA replaced the intake gasket set and when that car was picked up it didn't smoke like it did when you purchased it, but it still was using 1 Qt of oil every 100-150 miles. Wait....You'll see, your oil consumption problem has not been addressed.

I don't care if that engine has a fuel injection system installed on it. It's not changing the fact that the cylinder walls are pitted from what looked like rust. If you drop a bore scope down a cylinder and can easily see pitting and even rust in those pits you have a rebuild in your future.....And as I'm sure you know, a compression test will show great numbers as long as those pitted areas are in the middle of the cylinders. BUT, your engine is still gonna use excessive amounts of oil until the cylinder wall issue is addressed. This isn't rocket science. Pits in cylinder walls will cause oil consumption. End of story.

A gasket set and carb change isn't fixing it.

I wish I was wrong.....But that bore scope doesn't lie. I had ANOTHER shop check the same cylinders and they found the pitting in 5 minutes after rotating the crank just a few degrees.

Re-sleeve that motor or get a short block and you'll have a perfect car!!! As stated is the ad.

But telling folks a gasket set fixed it is not reality.

mrmustang · #20 (**permalink**) 08-17-2013, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdjake

I'm not mad at all...I'm just being honest.

My FE guy immediately mentioned the common issue of intake gaskets on FE engines. BUT....He took the time to FOLLOW me for a few miles while I ran the car through the gears to see exactly when it smoked....So, he did a leak down test of the passengers side bank of cylinders because (as you also stated) the majority of the smoke was coming from there. The motor had good leak down numbers. As your compression test confirmed. BUT...As you know, that doesn't mean everything is OK...So he ran the bore scope down. I stood NEXT to him as he scoped those cylinders. That fouled plug you have a picture of??? Take another look at that cylinder. You missed it.

Your expert missed the PITTING on the cylinder walls. It's there man...Recheck the passenger side cylinders CAREFULLY. Once my FE expert spotted the pitting on the cylinder walls there was no point in doing the work you just did....It's all coming back off to fix the real issue.

That motor is going to use 1 Qt of oil every 100-150 miles until that engine gets a rebuild.

ERA replaced the intake gasket set and when that car was picked up it didn't smoke like it did when you purchased it, but it still was using 1 Qt of oil every 100-150 miles. Wait....You'll see, your oil consumption problem has not been addressed.

I don't care if that engine has a fuel injection system installed on it. It's not changing the fact that the cylinder walls are pitted from what looked like rust. If you drop a bore scope down a cylinder and can easily see pitting and even rust in those pits you have a rebuild in your future.....And as I'm sure you know, a compression test will show great numbers as long as those pitted areas are in the middle of the cylinders. BUT, your engine is still gonna use excessive amounts of oil until the cylinder wall issue is addressed. This isn't rocket science. Pits in cylinder walls will cause oil consumption. End of story.

A gasket set and carb change isn't fixing it.

I wish I was wrong.....But that bore scope doesn't lie. I had ANOTHER shop check the same cylinders and they found the pitting in 5 minutes after rotating the crank just a few degrees.

Re-sleeve that motor or get a short block and you'll have a perfect car!!! As stated is the ad.

But telling folks a gasket set fixed it is not reality.

I cannot believe the motor did not smoke when you drove it back from ERA, the gasket was torn and a bolt forced through a side of the gasket, the hole in the gasket was that far off from where it should have been. Our dropping of the pan (which should have been the first thing your expert should have done) and our scoping of the upper combustion chamber did not show any pitting, nor any rust, perhaps you let the car sit too long with a spark plug out, and surface corrosion started to show. For us, I had just driven the car 30 miles to his shop and let it cool for the day before we tore into it the next day. If you know what you are looking at, then you know how to interpret it properly. Again not going to argue with you as I am getting ready for my anniversary trip, we'll find out one way or the other who is correct when I get back in a week or so. We can then either put this to bed one way or the other. If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it, how about you?

Bill S.