Coolant flushing and changing

[davids2toys]

I did a search for this and cant find anything in the ERA forum. I am about to take everything off the front of the motor and upgrading to an RR oil pan, new wind-age tray and dipstick location to the right side. Also want to do an inspection of the timing chain, freshening up all gaskets to stop all the leaking.
Since the water pump and Thermostat needs to come off anyway. I figure now would be the perfect time to service the coolant! Inspect hoses, etc

I have already purchased a new thermostat and gasket. Have plenty of distilled water and I bought the Ford VC-1 flush

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks...Dave

[patrickt]

I've done this a couple of times. There's absolutely nothing to it. I'm not even sure how I would give a tip on it other than avoiding the air pockets that accumulate. If you put in a new thermostat, drill a couple of holes in it as per the manual's suggestion. I don't even think you need to flush it, just drain it all out, then fill it up so the overflow tank has maybe an inch in it, then tilt your nose up and crack the upper petcock on the radiator, run the engine to get it warm, if you have a stubborn air bubble, loosen a manifold fitting towards the front and see if you can bleed the air off there. I like a 50/50 mix of conventional green and distilled water from the supermarket. I throw a bottle of Water Wetter in too and I change it all out every three years. It actually looks as good coming out as the new stuff going in.

Edit -- and there's a drain petcock on the bottom driver's side of the radiator, you can't miss it.

[davids2toys]

Thanks Pat,
I was thinking more of the whole system drain and a detailed flush procedure for a dirtier mixture in a car that has not been changed every three years. As I said, I already bought the Ford VC-1 flush
Also, would you happen to know the Torque values for the thermostat housing bolts going into an aluminum intake manifold and the water pump mounting bolts going thru an Aluminum water pump. I remember somewhere a long time ago reading or hearing these torques needed to be less because of possible damage to the Aluminum components?
Dave

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Also, would you happen to know the Torque values for the thermostat housing bolts going into an aluminum intake manifold and the water pump mounting bolts going thru an Aluminum water pump. I remember ...

As a matter of fact, I do.... 12-15 ft/lbs for the thermostat housing, with thread sealant. 20-25 ft/lbs for the water pump.

What we used to for a flush is to pour the flushing goo in the engine, run it for an short while, then park the car over an open sewer and run the garden hose in to the thermostat housing. Open the drain, turn on the garden hose, start the car and watch until the water going in to the sewer is clear. The EPA probably frowns upon that method now....


EDIT -- and remember to seal off that one pesky water pump bolt. http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1297894696


.

[davids2toys]

Thanks for the Torques Pat, did you take the aluminum into acct? I am assuming if this were going into a cast iron manifold it would be higher? Same for the aluminum water pump. I have heard of people breaking/ cracking them out from over torquing.

Yeah, I don't think that sewer trick is going to work anymore. When growing up in NYC, I used to do the sewer deal with oil changes and draining and filling coolant. TERRIBLE!!!
we have all got smarter, at least in this area anyway.

I will go back on you tube and see what I can find on different things guys do for the coolant flush and fill procedures. I believe my coolant is the original and has been in there for 12 years!!! The same for the brake fluid, I just got done flushing and bleeding the brakes and clutch in the fall. My slave and master are shot because of the filth fluid I believe. I have got new one on the shelf ready to go in. I also bought a fire-sleeve for the clutch line that comes very close to the header IMO. Better safe than sorry.

[DonC]

Don't overlook draining the block. I get close to as much water out of the block as I do out of draining the radiator.
There are two drain plugs (one on each side) on the bottom of the block. Make sure any wrench you use to remove them fits well as I think they're brass and you don't want to strip the heads and, if they've never been out, they may be a bit stubborn.
I replaced both of my block drains with the same type of uncrewable plugs as there are on the radiator the first time I drained the system to make things easier on subsequent drains.
DonC

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Thanks for the Torques Pat, did you take the aluminum into acct? I am assuming if this were going into a cast iron manifold it would be higher? Same for the aluminum water pump. I have heard of people breaking/ cracking them out from over torquing.

Yes, use the lower end if you're nervous over the torque. I pulled my instructions for the Edelbrock 8805 aluminum water pump and they make no mention of the torque at all. They do remind you to put the little overflow hose on first though.

You know, if it hasn't been drained in 12 years I might just drain it and replace it with fresh coolant again at the end of the summer.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Yes, use the lower end if you're nervous over the torque. I pulled my instructions for the Edelbrock 8805 aluminum water pump and they make no mention of the torque at all. They do remind you to put the little overflow hose on first though.

You know, if it hasn't been drained in 12 years I might just drain it and replace it with fresh coolant again at the end of the summer.

Thanks Pat,
Lower range of range noted.
It just occurred to me that I think you might not have an FE motor like me. I think I remember you posting that somewhere in the forum. Anyway, the torques may be different for your motor vs mine?

WOW, I am surprised at your response concerning the coolant. You are usually the most anal guy out there. I expected more like a complete tear-down and rewire the whole car

Dave

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DonC

Don't overlook draining the block. I get close to as much water out of the block as I do out of draining the radiator.
There are two drain plugs (one on each side) on the bottom of the block. Make sure any wrench you use to remove them fits well as I think they're brass and you don't want to strip the heads and, if they've never been out, they may be a bit stubborn.
I replaced both of my block drains with the same type of uncrewable plugs as there are on the radiator the first time I drained the system to make things easier on subsequent drains.
DonC

Definitely not Don,
I have full plans on draining the block and doing a flush, followed up by multiple drain and fills. l could do as Patrick suggested with the garden hose in the expansion tank with the thermostat removed, run until totally clear.Then do a total drain including the block. Then fill with distilled H2o/ antifreeze mix and one bottle of water wetter.

I am a little afraid of touching those block drains, so I may do what this guy did to avoid them but sill achieve the same results.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s--5ft5YiHg[/ame]

Thanks...Dave

[patrickt]

Well, there's not a whole lot you can do other than just flush the old stuff out and replace it with new stuff. The little scaly, gooey, ick that accumulates on the walls of the cooling system will eventually flush out. But if you're not leaking or overheating then there's really not that much going on. Conventional green coolant does wear out just sitting in your engine in the garage so, from now on, a periodic change is called for.

Here's a tactic that you (and others) might consider: You can avoid the air bubbles and nuisance of a full drain and refill if you simultaneously drain and fill three or four gallons of your 50/50 mixture each year. Just fill your overflow tank up to the top, open your petcock at the bottom of the radiator, and drain three gallons out while, at the same time, you pour your fresh mixture in from the top, so no air bubbles get in the system. Just do that once every summer and you'll always be just fine. No, you don't get every last drop out, but the continued dilution of the left over old mixture with the fresh new mixture, will be just as good, if not better than a once every three years cycle.

[davids2toys]

Interesting thought...since the rad only holds 2 gallons, I am assuming would you do this with the car running if you are calling for 3 or 4 gallons to be drained. Yes but the thermostat would be closed so that doesn't make sense either because nothing would be circulating?
I could see doing this with 2 gallons out and 2 gallons in, simultaneously with car off. This way I would think you would be achieving what you are talking about here, Seems like an easy process once a year to stay ahead of it!
Your thoughts?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Interesting thought...since the rad only holds 2 gallons, I am assuming would you do this with the car...?

No, you do it with the car engine off. The cooling system capacity of our FEs, with the nice big ERA radiator, is right about four gallons, give or take. What little I remember of fluid dynamics is that the coolant will drain relatively evenly from the bottom to the top. In other words, the mixture that you are pouring in to the top will will disperse "relatively evenly" and the old fluid that is lower will drain out, for the most part, before the fluid at the top. But, let's be really conservative and say of that three gallons that you're pouring in at the top of the system, while simultaneously draining out the bottom, let's say that only two of the gallons makes a complete exchange. In other words, if you had four gallons of crap in your coooling system and you perform the "three gallon simultaneous swap" that you really only end up with two fresh gallons and two left over crap gallons. That also makes the math easier, because you are just reducing each individual component percentage by one half (two over four). How would that play out over the years? If you start with a nice clean system at year 0, this is what each gallon of your system would look like if each year you did a 50% exchange:

Year 0 -- 4 fresh
Year 1 -- 2 fresh, 2 (1 yr old)
Year 2 -- 2 fresh, 1 (1 yr old), 1 (2 yr old)
Year 3 -- 2 fresh, 1 (1 yr old), 1/2 (2 yr old), 1/2 (3 yr old)
Year 4 -- 2 fresh, 1 (1 yr old), 1/2 (2 yr old), 1/4 (3 yr old), 1/4 (4 yr old)

The point being, your system will always be close to 90% fresh (meaning 90% of your coolant has two years or less on it), forever and ever. And that's with just a 50% exchange factor. And no more pesky air bubbles either....

[davids2toys]

Sure is a very interesting approach, and easy. In theory it sounds pretty good. However I think because the thermostat is in and closed and because the car is not running. You are still draining coolant out of the block from the lower rad hose into the rad. So the coolant in the engine is lowering and the coolant going into the tank cant get back in the engine at the same rate because the thermostat is closed. I would think that alone would create air bubbles no?

[patrickt]

The vacuum created by the lowering of the coolant from the block will draw fresh coolant in through the holes in the thermostat.

[davids2toys]

Yeah, I thought about that, but that hole is tiiny vs the the drain size? I am assuming you are opening the drain full speed? Also a while back, I believe Doug at ERA told me to ignore drilling that little #30 hole hole in the T-stat as instructed in the manual.

[patrickt]

Yes, a nice slow, reasonable dribble will do it just fine. And that way it doesn't splash up on anything or leave puddles for the dog to lick up.

[patrickt]

... and what originally brought this to mind was remembering way back when I was in school I had a friend whose car burned about a quart of oil every other month. I asked him "do you ever change your oil?" and he said "yes, all the time." Seriously, he never actually changed the entire supply of oil, he just figured it was constantly being changed anyway.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... and what originally brought this to mind was remembering way back when I was in school I had a friend whose car burned about a quart of oil every other month. I asked him "do you ever change your oil?" and he said "yes, all the time." Seriously, he never actually changed the entire supply of oil, he just figured it was constantly being changed anyway.

I wonder if he ever changed the oil filter?

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Yes, a nice slow, reasonable dribble will do it just fine. And that way it doesn't splash up on anything or leave puddles for the dog to lick up.

Yes, that would make a little more sense.I might do that as annual maintenance once I get this first BIG one out of the way!
Thanks

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

... and what originally brought this to mind was remembering way back when I was in school I had a friend whose car burned about a quart of oil every other month. I asked him "do you ever change your oil?" and he said "yes, all the time." Seriously, he never actually changed the entire supply of oil, he just figured it was constantly being changed anyway.

my ex father in-law did the same. His Maverick would leak and burn. He would just keep topping it off and change the filer twice a year! He parked on cardboard all the time, so much for getting the contaminants suspended in hot oil and drain the pan