Starting issue

davids2toys · #1 (**permalink**) 10-22-2018, 08:53 PM

Hi Guys,
Last Sat did not go as planned. We were headed to the final cruise at a local cruise night spot when my car decided to just turn over but not start. I had back surgery back in July, and was finally able to get into the car a couple of weeks ago...the car has been hibernating since last Thanksgiving. The first 2 outings, the car started and ran great no issues at all. This time I did not give it enough gas , it started but shut off, tried again, same thing. So I tried again with much more gas, absolutely no hint of starting, just lots of cranking. Thought it might be flooded, so cranked it some more with the throttle wide open, still nothing. Then tried some starting fluid, still nothing. I gave up and started some quick trouble shooting,. I have fuel at the carb. I put an inline tester at the spark plug and have no spark while cranking. I gave up at that point and went to the show. Yesterday morning I started doing a little research and testing. I have an MSD 6al box, MSD dizzy, MSD Blaster2 coil. Using a digital multimeter, testing for ohms primary windings , I am getting .7 ohms neg to pos terminal at coil. Secondary windings from good ground on firewall to coil output is 5040 0hms. I was following a you tube video and par that video, these numbers are good for the MSD coil. The next thing was turn the key to the on position, and test for volts at the coil pos terminal. It should have battery voltage but I am only showing about 3 volts and the test light shows nothing. I am showing voltage at solenoid on firewall and the brown wire coming off it. The continuity tester show all the glass fuses to be good So next I was going to take out the ignition switch so I could try testing the lugs and follow the power. I could not get that stupid bezel off to save my life. I had the same issues as this guy, How 2 Loosen Ignition switch??
I did the needle-nose and pliers routine, I tried taping it up and using vise grips, finally I sprayed some PB blaster, took and smaller screw driver and small hammer and tried to free it up that way...no luck. All I manage to do was mess up my water temp gage, the needle fell out of its mount. I have no idea why, I certainly was not hitting the bezel that hard, but all the needles were moving with each rap of the hammer. Certainly no more vibration than taking a vehicle off-road, which I would think these gages should handle. Anyways, I will fix that once I get the car started and prepped up for Winter storage. Certainly not a good way to end my 30 mile season, LOL. I bought another type of spark tester tonight and I think next is try and trace ign power path with the test light and volt meter. From what I understand from the guy at Autozone, it goes from the battery, to the MSD box, to the Dizzy, to the coil. I also still need to get the ign switch out! I assumed it is regular treads and I was going in the CCW direction?
Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I want to get all the important info in. Any ideas from our experts would be appreciated. God how I hate electrical!
Thanks...Dave

Gaz64 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 02:13 AM

David,

If you have a 6AL, there is not 12v at the ignition coil, there is some 480v with the engine running, since you have a CD ignition, not inductive ignition.

The coil primary terminals are more dangerous in a CD ignition.

After reading your opening statement, I wasn't surprised to see you have a MSD ignition fault.

Now, onto some testing.

Can you disconnect your mag trigger harness at the distributor, remove the coil wire from the distributor, set up the coil wire with 1/2 inch gap to ground.

Get yourself a paperclip, form a horseshoe.

Then ignition key on, bridge the mag harness that goes towards the 6AL module in rapid on/offs. Does spark jump across your 1/2 gap?

Gary

Kit Coyle · #3 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 10:49 AM

Buy a Lucas bezel removal tool. I bought one from Moss Motors, Ltd.
TOOL SET, SWITCH BEZEL REMOVAL...part#384-960...$29.99...on sale for
$21.99.

patrickt · #4 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 12:04 PM

Dave, you do not need to remove your ignition switch, the terminals are easily reachable from under the dash. But, if you feel the need to remove it, it's pretty easy to just make a "two prong" tool that fits the two slots around the switch. It just unscrews and your ignition switch is very easy to change out. I did mine about ten years ago and it was a ten minute job. That said, a "no spark" condition with the MSD box is the easiest to diagnose no start condition there is. Don't take any VOM measurements, don't jump to any conclusions, just follow these instructions: https://www.holley.com/support/troub...ng_techniques/ The hardest part is just figuring out whether you're using a white wire trigger or the purple/green trigger. It's either going to be: 1) a bad magnetic pickup; 2) a bad coil; 3) a bad MSD box; 4) a bad distributor cap/rotor; 5) a bad 12v feed to the box.

Gaz64 · #5 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 03:30 PM

Thanks for adding the trouble-shooting link Patrick.

Good to see it states the differences as to why no 12v at the coil.

patrickt · #6 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Thanks for adding the trouble-shooting link Patrick.

Good to see it states the differences as to why no 12v at the coil.

Ahhh, the good ol' days when you could charge up a 400v capacitor and then playfully toss it to a friend and yell "catch!"

davids2toys · #7 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Dave, you do not need to remove your ignition switch, the terminals are easily reachable from under the dash. But, if you feel the need to remove it, it's pretty easy to just make a "two prong" tool that fits the two slots around the switch. It just unscrews and your ignition switch is very easy to change out. I did mine about ten years ago and it was a ten minute job. That said, a "no spark" condition with the MSD box is the easiest to diagnose no start condition there is. Don't take any VOM measurements, don't jump to any conclusions, just follow these instructions: https://www.holley.com/support/troub...ng_techniques/ The hardest part is just figuring out whether you're using a white wire trigger or the purple/green trigger. It's either going to be: 1) a bad magnetic pickup; 2) a bad coil; 3) a bad MSD box; 4) a bad distributor cap/rotor; 5) a bad 12v feed to the box.

Pat, I am only 12 weeks post op from back surgery/fusion. I would rather be safe than sorry. I am still pretty stiff and sore. Even if I removed the seat it would be a challenge. I figured it would be much easier just popping it out of the hole and testing it ad tracing wires in the hanging down position. As I said, this bezel was not moving more than an 1/8". I remember changing the switch in my first Cobra, as you said, piece of cake!
Great link, I also found it late last night. I will be doing all of these things. I might get a little time Thursday morning, but probably not.I feel better because you are making this sound much easier and less scarier. By the way, I have that purple/green trigger connector.
As I said, I hate electrical.
As usual Pat, your vast knowledge is always so helpful...THANKS.
I will report back on my progress

patrickt · #8 (**permalink**) 10-24-2018, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Pat, I am only 12 weeks post op from back surgery/fusion. I would rather be safe than sorry. I am still pretty stiff and sore.

The beauty of the MSD box and the ERA wiring harness is that you can check voltage/continuity without always having to crawl under the dash or under the car to get to the spot that you think needs testing -- which pretty much sucks when your back hurts. For example, you can check your ignition switch, for the most part, over at your starter solenoid (which is really easy to reach), because of the way ERA wires in the little red and orange trigger and tach wires. When the MSD box is over the passenger's feet, you would think that the little red and orange trigger/tach wires would just run two feet directly over to the ignition switch and tach, but it usually doesn't. It goes out through the firewall, around the block, and up to the wiring harness by the distributor. This is because the harness also has to support "legacy" ignitions that feed 12v+ to the coil. The ballast resistor connections along that line are just fused together, but you still have the offshoot of that connection heading off to the starter solenoid. The long and the short of that means three things: 1) You can hotwire and start up an ERA/MSD car with a two inch piece of wire and an aluminum foil gum wrapper; 2) a misbehaving starter solenoid can actually keep your car running even when you remove the key from the ignition; and, more importantly, 3) You can check the continuity and function of your MSD ignition system without having to bend your back much at all. I'll lead you through it when you're ready, but it's really, really, really easy to do.

davids2toys · #9 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kit Coyle

Buy a Lucas bezel removal tool. I bought one from Moss Motors, Ltd.
TOOL SET, SWITCH BEZEL REMOVAL...part#384-960...$29.99...on sale for
$21.99.

One or our local ERA forum members had made one for his Cobra 13 years ago. I am picking it up tomorrow. I will just break the bezel free in case I have to test or replace it, and then return it.
Thank you for the tool info

davids2toys · #10 (**permalink**) 11-09-2018, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kit Coyle

Buy a Lucas bezel removal tool. I bought one from Moss Motors, Ltd.
TOOL SET, SWITCH BEZEL REMOVAL...part#384-960...$29.99...on sale for
$21.99.

Cool tool, I decided to order it, I'm sure I will need it one day.
Thanks

davids2toys · #11 (**permalink**) 10-23-2018, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaz64

David,

If you have a 6AL, there is not 12v at the ignition coil, there is some 480v with the engine running, since you have a CD ignition, not inductive ignition.

The coil primary terminals are more dangerous in a CD ignition.

After reading your opening statement, I wasn't surprised to see you have a MSD ignition fault.

Now, onto some testing.

Can you disconnect your mag trigger harness at the distributor, remove the coil wire from the distributor, set up the coil wire with 1/2 inch gap to ground.

Get yourself a paperclip, form a horseshoe.

Then ignition key on, bridge the mag harness that goes towards the 6AL module in rapid on/offs. Does spark jump across your 1/2 gap?

Gary

Hi Gary,
Just a little over my head here.What is a CD ignition? What opening statement are you referring to? Why are you not surprised?
As far as your testing goes, it unfortunately has to wait. I am leaving for 1 week vacation Sat morning and running around all this week. No time for the Cobra until I return end of next week. I will gather research info and hit it hard when I return end of next week. I will have to get a diagram I can identify the parts you are referring to.
Thanks

DanEC · #12 (**permalink**) 10-24-2018, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Hi Gary,
Just a little over my head here.What is a CD ignition?

Capacitor Discharge. Electrical is not my strong suit so instead here is a link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capaci...harge_ignition

davids2toys · #13 (**permalink**) 10-24-2018, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanEC

Capacitor Discharge. Electrical is not my strong suit so instead here is a link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capaci...harge_ignition

Interesting, thanks

davids2toys · #14 (**permalink**) 10-25-2018, 05:54 AM

OK, I will do one thing at a time. I set the meter to Ohms (auto), and measured across the pickup coming from the dist, those are the wires you are suggesting right? My reading is erratic and keeps rising. In mega-ohms it start around .710 and just keeps going up the longer I keep the probes on the wire metal ends. I stopped testing it at 1.022. On line conversion of .710 mega-ohms is 710000 ohms. Does this big number real mean 710 ohms? I told you electricity is not my strong suite.
On my last test last night, after I tested for spark, I left everything all hooked up and hooked the pigtail back together. Then I turned the key on, remote cranked the engine. No spark out of the coil wire. I am thinking I should be getting the same spark as I got with the jumper test? Should I be? I am thinking because I do not have time at the moment, and don't want to bring fuel and actually running it into the equation, that I could do what Pat said by rapping the pick-up and just test it this way instead of actually starting it up. Pat, where exactly should I hit it?
Also, is there anyway I can re-attach the Water temp needle in the gage? I still can't believe it fell off

patrickt · #15 (**permalink**) 10-25-2018, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davids2toys

OK, I will do one thing at a time. I set the meter to Ohms (auto), and measured across the pickup coming from the dist, those are the wires you are suggesting right? My reading is erratic and keeps rising. In mega-ohms it start around .710 and just keeps going up the longer I keep the probes on the wire metal ends. I stopped testing it at 1.022. On line conversion of .710 mega-ohms is 710000 ohms. Does this big number real mean 710 ohms? I told you electricity is not my strong suite

OK, I think you said you had purchased a new magnetic pickup some time ago. Take that one out of the package and practice measuring the resistance across its leads. We want to see 500 to 700 ohms, just like what you see in the picture on this page. https://www.holley.com/support/troub...ng_techniques/ Then, after you've mastered measuring the resistance across the new one, tackle the old one and compare the results.

patrickt · #16 (**permalink**) 10-25-2018, 06:14 AM

This is the picture I'm talking about from the "Magnetic Pickup in the Distributor" tab on that page. This one is showing 590 ohms. That's good.

davids2toys · #17 (**permalink**) 10-25-2018, 07:45 AM

Just did it on the new one. It is super easy because it is not in the clip. It reads just like yours and a very steady reading. Did it again on the old one with the same climbing reading result. Can i take these wires out of the clip maybe?
I remember a few years ago it would not start and it turned out the pigtail had come apart. I pushed it back together and never had a problem since. Should this pig tail lock together, or is it supposed to separate fairly easy?

patrickt · #18 (**permalink**) 10-25-2018, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Just did it on the new one. It is super easy because it is not in the clip. It reads just like yours and a very steady reading. Did it again on the old one with the same climbing reading result. Can i take these wires out of the clip maybe?

Sure, I think you're honing in on a faulty magnetic pickup. But, just because it's in the protocol, crank the engine with the cap off and observe the rotor spinning. While it's unlikely, you want to eliminate the possibility that you sheared your pin off.

davids2toys · #19 (**permalink**) 10-25-2018, 08:35 AM

Sure what? I can get the wires out of the pigtail? I cant figure out how to get them out.If the pickup was faulty, would I get the climbing reading?

Just checked rotor rotation, perfect.

What about that spark at the coil wire question.

Also, what do you like for electrical contact cleaner? I am thinking of spraying every connector I can find on the car including this pigtail and then applying dielectric grease

patrickt · #20 (**permalink**) 10-25-2018, 08:44 AM

I have had faulty "locking pigtail components" before from ERA, so I wouldn't want to bet a lot that somehow it wasn't causing part of the problem. If it was me, I would just cut the two wires that are coming off the magnetic pickup, strip them back, and measure the resistance. If the resistance is back up to normal, I would leave it in there. If the resistance is bad, then I would replace it with the new one, and hard wire/solder/shrinkwrap the connection and not worry about it again until you pull the engine. For electrical cleaner, I use whatever spray cleaner I happen to have, 409, Windex, Mr. Clean, etc., then I rub the ends with a little 400 grit sandpaper, then a light wipe of dielectric grease. I use dielectric grease on anything that conducts electricity and have so for almost 50 years. Electrical connections, plug wires, distributor terminals, the rotor tip, everything.