ERA 753 - Final Assembly in Progress

[Bobcat]

Fred .... thanks ! I ordered the covers from ERA Bob this morning . My lady is bugging me for a New England trip . If I get in the area , I would love to see your car " in person " .

Bob

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

What are you doing to prevent chips in the front of the car? Are you installing a clear bra or just staying away from other cars?

Just trying to not follow other cars too closely.

- Fred

[xracerbob]

Kramer- I had the same tire rub issue on the left front. I took a die grinder and removed just enough of the "lip" to stop the rub. I will be taking it back to the painter to make it look pretty. It rubs at the bottom rear of the wheel opening where the fiberglass lip goes into the wheel well. If the car is up on jackstands, it won't hit. When on the ground turn the wheel all the way to the left and you would see the interference.

[Metal-morphous]

OK Fred, its been a few months that you have been driving that gourgous cobra with its monster engine. I know you really enjoyed building it and I was wonder how do you like driving it?

Just for some info for everone, Fred drove from NH. to my shop in CT. a few months ago and got 22 MPG not bad for 740 HP

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Metal-morphous

Just for some info for everone, Fred drove from NH. to my shop in CT. a few months ago and got 22 MPH not bad for 740 HP

I think that really sucks. He's got almost 300 more horsepower than I do and barely get 10 miiles to the gallon. In fact, I usually don't.

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I think that really sucks. He's got almost 300 more horsepower than I do and barely get 10 miiles to the gallon. In fact, I usually don't.

Patrick,

You might consider EFI. Some really cool weber look-alike EFI systems on the market now. If these had been available when I started my project, would have definitely used one. Check out the following link:

http://www.dynamicmotorsports.net/Dynaformance.htm

- Fred

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by fkemmerer

Patrick,

You might consider EFI. Some really cool weber look-alike EFI systems on the market now. If these had been available when I started my project, would have definitely used one. Check out the following link:

http://www.dynamicmotorsports.net/Dynaformance.htm

- Fred

Fred, frankly your car is simply in a class above mine. The Weber looking EFI stuff is indeed cool though.

[fkemmerer]

We've been enjoying ERA 753 all summer. The car is running great. I do have a problem that I need to solve and I'd like to get some ideas from others on this forum. Now that the weather in New England has cooled down, my oil temperatures are running too low (50 - 60 degrees C typically). I ordered a Canton thermostat that I plan to put on the car in the next week or two. Only problem is the size of the unit. I don't want to put it anywhere obvious as I'm concerned it will spoil the "original look" of the engine bay. Has anyone found a place to put the Canton Theromstat somewhere out of site on an ERA?

- Fred

[Metal-morphous]

Well you get 1 MPG better than mine,, 9 going down hill with the wind on my back

[tboneheller]

If I had 740 horsepower, I would have drive a lot faster than 22 miles per hour!!!

[fkemmerer]

Well, first I did a more careful mileage run and I find I am getting more like 14 MPG. Still pretty good for a 482 ci engine. The mileage is largely due to the combination of the overdrive transmission (My 5th gear is a .64 overdrive) and the EFI system on the car.

I really love driving this car! It handles great, looks great and really performs when you get into the throttle. With the Goodyear billboards, it also does pretty well in the turns . As Ron knows, I am a big EFI fan and would probably not build another carburated performance engine for the street at this point. While EFI results in more up front cost and work to install, it really is great to be able to jump in the car and just drive it without any finicky behaviors. The other advantage of EFI is that it allows more radical induction and camshaft combinations to be used with good drivablity on the street. The following pics are of the induction systems on my two EFI street motors:

482 ci Injected Ford FE

383 ci Blown and Injected SBC

I've started these motors in cold weather (as low at 0 degrees with the blown and injected car) and they start right up and idle perfectly. The drivability on both motors is excellent (although they do take a very LIGHT touch on the throttle to cruise due to the large amount of throttle blade area). BTW, both of these motors make over 600 hp and 600 ft-lbs of torque on 93 octane pump gas.

I doubt that either of these motors would be as streetable as they are without the associated EFI systems.

As far as tuning goes, I personally find EFI system much easier to tune then carbs. With an EFI system, a tuner can make very localized changes in the fuel and timing curves of a motor without having an effect anywhere else in the engine's operation. This is a big advantage over a carb where changes effect large areas of the fuel delivery and timing curves. In the later situation, solving a problem at one point in an engine's operating range can often cause problems in other areas or a power or drivability loss overall. I recently took an advanced EFI tuning course where we spent a full day optimizing the performance of a car on a dyno. Based upon this experience, I can definitively say that an EFI equipped car when optimally tuned using a load bearing dyno, will outperform a carb equipped car in at least some areas of the engine operating range. The reason for this is that the combination of a carb and a manual/vacumn advance distributor can at best provide a compromise in terms of optimal fuel and timing delivery for a given engine. As an example, it is not uncommon for a motor to want a different timing advance setting than a standard distrbutor can delivery with its relatively fix mechanical and vacumn advance curves. For example, a combination of a somewhat restrictive exhaust system and a high overlap camshaft might result in a great deal of reversion at a specific RPM and load range. In an EFI system, it is very simple to give the same motor the exact amount of extra timing and fuel that it wants to address what would otherwise be a drivability issue in a situation like this at only the required combination of engine load and RPM. Fixing this sort of a problem with a carb would likely result in an overly rich mixture in a large are of the engine's operating range and it may be impossible to add the optimal amount of ignition timing without causing the engine to detonate just above the range where the reversion problem ceases. The more radical the combination of camshaft and induction becomes, the more likely the these "fine point" optimizations are going to be important for good drivability somewhere in a egine's operating range.

Modern engine management systems also allow for some capabilities that would be very hard to duplicate without them. For example, our cobra has an electronic traction control system which is part of the engine managment system. This setup uses a driveshaft speed sensor which detects when the rear wheels are spinning and reduces the ignition advance and therefore the torque output of the motor. The result is that I cannot spin the rear tires on a hard start unless I really try. These sorts of capabilities make the car more fun to drive. Another example would be that the EFI setup on our cobra has a total of 4 seperate tunes which can be selected with a switch. This allows me to have a tune that would be optimized for a different grade of fuel (say race gas where more ignition timing would be needed) and either tune can be selected with a flip of a switch.

Then there is the on-board data recording capabilities that come with most EFI systems. It great to know that I got to 100 MPH while pulling .7-1.5g's in a certain amount of time and be able to see how quick my shifts were and what my instaneous MPG readings were in the process (well maybe the MPG in these situations is somewhat depressing ....).

Some folks suggest that only an engineer (I am an EE) could make a modern EFI system work really well. I would say that installing a good EFI setup is certainly no more difficult that building the cobra's that many of us on this forum have done. The technology is new but can easily be learned with a little reading and investment in time. There are also more and more qualified performance EFI tuners every day so one does not need to be an expert to get a EFI equipped car properly tuned and running great. The really nice part about the tune is that it will need to be done only once in the life of the car/motor unless something significant is changed so this step can be outsourced to an expert. The other factor is the higher initial cost of an EFI system. I personally think this issue is somewhat overblown because many folks who build an EFI equipped car are doing so to run a radical (and fundamentally more expensive) induction system than a carb. I think if one compares a basic EFI system with a carb like intake and throttle body to a comperable carb induction setup, the premium paid for the EFI setup becomes much smaller. If you add the time and expense to keep the carb running at peak performance over the life of the combination, I would suggest that the cost difference become next to nothing.

As engines become more sophisticated, it is only a matter of time before modern engine management systems become essential to extracting peak performance. A good example of this is the recent application of Variable Valve Timming (VVT) technology to performance engines. VVT is a system that varies cam timing, overlap, and or valve lift under computer control. Many modern (post 2000) automotive engines are using some form of this technology to increase power output, mileage, and emissions performance. I recently saw test results from an application of this technology to a performance motor and gains in the range of 10% torque and HP at some points in the engine's operating range were achieved with VVT under the control of an aftermarket EFI system. The bigest advantage of VVT in performance applications is that it creates a broader, flatter torque curve. Also note that the 2008-2009 Viper V-10 engine uses a VVT system and an EFI management computer which together with a power adder can make over 700 hp (the "stock" V-10 with VVT makes 560 ft-lbs and 600 hp).

Sorry for the long article on the merits of EFI but I believe that this choice has alot to do with the "fun factor" of owning and driving our cobra. The last thing to mention is that an EFI system can be installed on a classic car in a way that maintains the original retro look of the vehicle in question. In both of the pics above, the EFI elements have been well hidden and the cars look pretty close to period correct when compared to the far less drivable mechanical induction systems equivalents that would have been used in the day.


- Fred

[jeffy]

FYI and FWIW, I discussed this topic with Peter P. yesterday and decided to do nothing, in part because I don't plan to drive when it is below 60* or so.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by jeffy

I ... decided to do nothing, in part because I don't plan to drive when it is below 60* or so.

Ah, a man after my own heart.

[ERA Chas]

That's 100 PLUS MPH-doesn't every ERA run that way??

Really cool you can calculate that stuff-please post as it's interesting to see paper results and compare to real-world.

Yes the lines on an ERA aren't more than about 9-10' but together with cooler and pan plus ambient and speed you get chilly oil.

Fred's also on the right track with 10w-30 oil but after his testing, I hope he'll conclude it's just best not to drive when you need a parka on.

I just wanted to save him money and a round-in-circles project. He's already built the space shuttle of ERAs.

[fkemmerer]

Well first thing I did today was to put 10w30 oil in the car. The temperature here in NH is 52 degrees F right now. Running the car on the hiway at 65 mph with the cooler open resulted in oil temps around 50 degrees C (122 degrees F) - way too cool. I did the simple trick of making a block for the cooler from cardboard and duct tape and the oil temp is now running at 60 degrees C (140 degrees F) - better but still pretty cool. My motor is an all aluminum 482 ci BBF (not painted) and I have a canton pan (also not painted) so I am probably a worst case in terms of disipating heat from the oil via the block, heads, and pan. I am thinking that I will put the oil termostat on the car over the winter as my oil temps are on the low side even in the middle of summer up here. THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR ALL OF THE GREAT SUGGESTIONS!

- Fred

[patrickt]

Fred, if you, say, wrapped your oil cooler in some pink insulation and aluminum foil over that, and took it out for a good ride and only gain 10 degrees, how would a thermostat do any better?

[ERA Chas]

You've duplicated my findings exactly in 52 ambient weather.
Pat's question is very valid.

To avoid the 'dead horse' syndrome, I wish you best luck in your testing Fred. I know that engineers never take 'no' for an answer-my kid is one.

I just wanted to save you a few bucks on another item for shelf dwelling. (I have several-ahem)

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

You've duplicated my findings exactly in 52 ambient weather.
Pat's question is very valid.

To avoid the 'dead horse' syndrome, I wish you best luck in your testing Fred. I know that engineers never take 'no' for an answer-my kid is one.

I just wanted to save you a few bucks on another item for shelf dwelling. (I have several-ahem)

Thanks, I do appreciate that. You are right about the engineer part . Since I already have the cooler, its a little easier to justify the work to put it on as long as I can find a spot where it does not effect the appearance of the car. Thanks again for the help. Thanks to your and others help, I have a much better expectation on what can (and can't) be accomplished with these changes.


- Fred

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Fred, if you, say, wrapped your oil cooler in some pink insulation and aluminum foil over that, and took it out for a good ride and only gain 10 degrees, how would a thermostat do any better?

Well, the cover I made only blocks the front of the cooler, not the top, bottom and sides. I figure that I am loosing some heat on all of those surfaces as well on the lines that lead to and from the cooler. I figure that the thermostat might be worth another 5 - 10 degress in cool weather.

The real reason that I am doing this is that my oil temps don't get above 70 degrees C (approx. 160 degress F) even in warm weather. Rather that hastle with removing the cardboard block when it does get really hot or I run the car hard, I think its best to just install the thermostat.

I looked at my car on the lift yesterday and it looks like I can install the thermostat down low between the radiator and the chassis cross braces in the front if I make a custom bracked to allow the lines to clear the lower radiator hose. This should be a good spot in terms of "hiding" it and this location should keep the lines short.

BTW, the sensor for my oil temp gauge is installed in the front of my canton pan. I wonder how much of the temperature drop when the car is moving is really the oil temp vs. the fact that the sensor is in the stream of cool undercar air. Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?

- Fred

[fastd]

Doesn't running 0W-30 synthetic oil go a long way towards resolving the "not so hot oil" problems? Anthony has a great post some time ago regarding oil weights.

Are there any technical types out there that can "weigh" in here about this topic; specifically, a 0W-XX oil will substantially address many of the concerns people have about lubrication at lower than optimal temperatures. New question: do synthetic oils hold water like mineral oils, i.e. if synthetic oils don't get up to 185+F, do they gunk up like mineral oils?