Upcoming FE build: plan coming together

[aks801]

I love it when a plan starts to take shape!

As I'll do with as many areas as possible of the roadster build, I'll want to be very involved in the engine build. Since I have no experience in from-the-block-on-up engine builds, it may end up making more sense to have a pro builder do it for me. But I at least want to understand it all as much as I can up front.

So: this will be an FE block. I'm leaning toward a 390 due to availability and cost factors, but would certainly love to get a hold of a reasonably priced 428 block. I like the idea of combing junkyards and craigslist to rescue a block from obscurity. Anything I should watch out for? I'm assuming I should have good reference materials on hand so I can decode parts stampings to make sure what I am getting. Beyond that, it seems like the idea would be to not overpay, since a sonic check will be in order before the block gets the ok.

New aluminum heads seem to make a lot of sense: save some weight, and not deal with costs associated with reworking an original iron head. Who should I look toward for FE heads?

Induction will be via Weber carbs, I'm locked into that idea now. I'm going to "go to Weber school" by reading the typically recommended reference materials for Webers. I am completely positive I'll end up getting considerable help with their set-up, but as with the whole project I want to understand what I'm dealing with as much as possible, rather than just cutting a check.

Last and certainly least, I'll use the 427 chrome "pent roof" valve covers.

Any and all thoughts/recommendations/warnings/condolences... will be accepted graciously.

[RICK LAKE]

aks801 Alan I will talk to you latter. Biggest this is getting a stroker kit with a 4.25" crank, BBC 6.7" rods, good pistons, 10.5 compression. A Barry r. kit fits the bill nicely. 446" makes 450-475 HP and 530-550Ft of torque. torque moves the car not HP. Rick L.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by aks801

I'm leaning toward a 390 due to availability and cost factors...

Induction will be via Weber carbs, I'm locked into that idea now.

You're going to save a few hundred on a block... and top it with $3k in carburetion? Um... interesting choice.

Edelbrock is a good, solid choice for all top-engine alumimum: Performer RPM heads are a nice update of Ford mid-risers and work very well when matched to the Performer RPM intake. Eddy water pumps are good, too. The Performer RPMs will generate more low-end power in a usable range (1500-6500) than the Victor heads, which are mushy below 2000 but generate more HP in the 5000-7000 range. There are other choices, most more expensive, but it's hard to do better without a lot of custom work.

EDIT: Strike the comment about the intake, since you're using Webers. You can get good intakes that match Ford mid-risers, which will mate nicely with these heads, though.

[cobred]

There is a member giving away a 428 block needing some work on the pay it foward thread. It may pay for you to pay the shipping and get a free block.

[aks801]

Originally Posted by Gunner

You're going to save a few hundred on a block... and top it with $3k in carburetion? Um... interesting choice.

Yeah, I get that. If I ran into a situation where a 428 block was just "a few hundred" more than the 390, I'd get the 428. But I do see what you are saying: being budget-minded and going with Webers would not appear to go together.

[767Jockey]

Alan,
There doesn't seem to me to be a big gain for the money going from a 390 block to a 428 block. Many guys are willing to pay big bucks for a 428 block because they're doing a correct resto on a car that needs one. They go for much more money usually than a 390 block, and while they are certainly different they aren't THAT different. While scrounging in the wrecking yards beware of unknowingly buying a FT block. The FT engine is sort of a heavy duty FE that came in trucks, and they are almost identical, the biggest difference being the distributor hole is bigger. There are bushings available to use a regular FE distributor in a FT block, I think Dennis used to have them out at DSC, perhaps others can chime in here about other FE/FT block differences and where to buy the distributor bushings.

As Rick said, throw a stroker kit into a low buck 390 block and you'll do great. The only real big gain from that 390 setup is to go all the way up to a 427 type block, then you have very big gains in both cross bolted bottom end and in available cubes from a stroker kit due to the big bore on a 427 vs. the significantly smaller 428 bore. As you probably know, a 428 gets it's cubic size from a smaller bore but larger stroke. A 427 is a short stroke big bore engine. Throw a stroker kit into a 390 and it's more of a low buck 428 style engine.

If you're stuck on Webers, make sure you optimize the cam choice to the carbs - I have read many times that Webers are VERY cam sensitive. Go with someone VERY good with Webers to help pick the cam. Don't trust the cam mfg's cam tech line - they usually don't know jack about Webers. Talk to Barry R., Keith Craft and some of the better engine builders, maybe double check with a place like Inglese who specialize in Webers.

Make sure you spend good money on the valvetrain - use good aftermarket rockers, and end stands are a must. I'm told that the assembled Edelbrock heads leave something to be desired as far as the components used, you're much better off buying them bare and have someone who knows what they're doing put in good valves, springs to match your cam, good keepers and retainers, and most of all a top notch valve job. It ends up being a bit more money but usually not too much to do it this way. Keith Craft and Barry can sell you the whole setup. Good luck with the build, sounds like a lot of fun.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

maybe double check with a place like Inglese who specialize in Webers.

I wouldn't waste your time messing around with Inglese with questions regarding Webers--terrible customer service. Try Pierce Manifolds or other enterprises that have experience with Webers (or the several members on this forum who have a lot of experience with Webers).

[Gunner]

Consider the resale value of a car with a true 428 block and one built around a 390 as well. All in all, I think it's one of the wrong places to try to save money. You don't have to have a virgin NOS 427 side-oiler, but a proper 428 is an investment in both correctness and value. IMHO.

[RICK LAKE]

aks801 If you are building the car to sell, a correct year 428 block is going to cost you big bucks. A 390 block can still be found for $500-700 with thick walls and plenty of boring room. A 428 block, a safe .030" is max bore for this motor. A sonic test would also need to be done. You are playing with a 40+ year old block to start in a 428. The walls where not that thick, same with a 427 block. Can you bore them out to .045"-.060" MAYBE depending on the sonic check and how thick the thrust wall still is. Very few people can tell a 390 from a 428 block without measuring the bore and stroke. I was caught in the problem myself. I got a motor and found out it was a 410 FE motor. A 3.98 crank with a 4.05 bore. Good thing is there is plenty of meat to bore it down the road if a want to use it. Some guys are cheating thin wall blocks with filling them partial up with block crete. Stablizes the block but make the motor run hotter from less coolant around the cylinder walls. Most heat is in the top 1-2" of the block and heads. You can drive these on the street but would not want to be caught in any traffic problems, these motor overheat even with the best cooling systems.. Finding a 428 block and having it sleeved is another idea. For street useage I see no problem, hard abuse that's a different story. The 390 block with all the work is going to come in cheaper that finding a 428 block and having the machine work done too. Try and find a heavy webbed block if you are going with 428. Rick L.

[Excaliber]

I don't understand why a 428 block is all that more desirable over a 390? Both still fall short of a 427. OK, I'd rather have a 428 than a 390 (for the cubic inch more than anything else), but not if it's going to cost substantially more than a 390. If it's going to cost a bunch more, then I'd have to consider trading the Webers for the extra cash to go to the next level, 427.

[LMH]

What is the visible difference between a 428 block and a 390 block?
Larry

[vector1]

aaahhhh, the old weber battle, i don't understand why people use these.

go with the small bore big stroke, lighter piston setup. lightweight crank, h beam rods, lightweight clutch.

[Excaliber]

None you can see that I know of (390 vs 428)! Without very close inspection the same could be said of the 427 as well. So whats the big deal with a 427? Braggin' rights? Maybe for some, OK, you ARE going to brag if you have one.

BUT, you need to build/design a car you are personally happy with. Don't do it to please someone else. Like the Webers, if thats why a guy wants it's OK to splurge there, then save some money somewhere else (like a 390 block). All of us have a budget, some budgets are just bigger than others, but we ALL draw the line somewhere.

So you get the 427 center oiler, then someone ask's, "Is it a side oiler?" If it's side oiler they might ask, "How about the OHC 427. That's the best!" You can't win, there is always the "next level".

You get the Webers and the guy parked next to you at the show has chromed Webers! Dang!!!

[Excaliber]

vector1's comment about bore and stroke got to me thinking.

A classic race type, high performance type motor is a big bore with short stroke. They make rpm quicker and typically rev higher than a longer stroke motor. The 427 is a classic design in that regard, big bore, short stroke. Add to that list the legendary Chevy small blocks, 302, 327. Porsche followed that basic recipe as well, many other examples out there. 428 was small bore, long stroke, which is favored by TRUCKS for the torque, not the horse power!

Modern engines tend to go long stroke small bore these days. It's a recipe that is better for emmission controls, mpg, that sort of thing. More horse power per cube comes from modern superior computer functions (EFI, etc) as well as computer designed combustion chambers, better science and all that.

BUT, that doesn't change the fact that a big bore short stroke is inherently a "better design" when it comes to making max h.p. and building rpm quicker. When Ford designed the 427 they had one thing in mind, win races, what's the best fundamental design to do that? Well, there ya go!

[cscobra]

Nothing wrong at all with a 390 block. In stock form, it has the same stroke as a 427. For easier and higher revs, as well as better durability when you're not revving it, a shorter stroke (390/427) with lower piston speeds is a better choice than a longer stroke (428 and/or stroker kit on any engine) with its inherently higher piston speeds. Any of these engines will have far more power (especially torque) than can be realistically used on the street, and plenty of power for racing, so why not enhance reliability, durability, and longer engine life if you can?

As far as originality goes, the 390 and 428 blocks are externally identical. The 428 block was installed on far more Cobras than was the 427. Remember, the first couple of experimental FE-block Cobras even used 390 blocks (albeit aluminum). So again, no problem using a 390.

Remember also to not use a carburetor that is too big for the engine. Holley's website has a calculator to help you determine the size that would be best for your needs.

Frankly, I hope no one here takes my advice! That way, 390 blocks will continue to be cheap (and relatively plentiful) for guys like me!

[vector1]

excaliber

a well known cam maker mentioned getting the avg. piston speed up to the "magical 4500fpm" range, which would put a 4.10 stroke at around 6600 rpms. i don't know if this has any merit as i don't know what he was basing this on, probably experience as he does a lot of higher performance race stuff. take the cup cars which are turning 8k+ at 3.48 stroke and they are into the 4600fpm range.

also look at the emc winner who has done well the last few years and what they build, longer stroke smaller bore seems to be the tendency i'm thinking, smaller bore also produces less friction.

if you can make a bigger stroke live and breath at higher rpm it will always make more hp, rpm being a mulitplier of tq.

i'm only wrong 50% of the time, so i'm batting .500.

[Excaliber]

Short stroke, builds rpm faster, but it's less filling...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Short stroke, builds rpm faster, but it's less filling...

Perhaps you should caution him on the importance of putting the correct flywheel on his build....

[lemans24]

if you do webers, make sure you use the right cam and install O2 bungs in the exhaust collectors. An LM-2 makes it alot easier to see whats going on with the air fuel mixture. I'm running 48IDA's on mine. Still working out the fine tuning, but it is awsome. I got mine from Pierce Manifolds. They have been great to work with.

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I don't understand why a 428 block is all that more desirable over a 390?

I can't necessarily answer the basic question, but the resale prices show a considerable gulf between 428 and 390 cars. I'd go so far as to say that 390s are the lowest price tier, even below small blocks in the 427 car, and a greater margin below 428s than 428s are below 427s.

390s are great engines and if resale value is of no concern and the modest performance hit from smaller net displacement is acceptable, then go right ahead with a 390-block motor. If the budget is so expansive as to consider other high-end parts like Webers, diverting a few hundred more to a block that's more correct, has a bit more performance potential and will enhance resale is probably a good idea. IMHO.

As for 427 vs 428, the longer-stroke motor historically has better longevity - CS hisself used to say that 427s would blow for no reason and the 428 was a better street motor. The availability of monster-strength cranks and rods has changed that a lot but it's worth keeping in mind that 428s are second *only* to the very costly 427SO in nearly all respects. And, fa criminy's sake, both engines are oversquare with only a 0.20 inch difference in stroke... and by the time they're stroked out as most of these engines are, the difference becomes minimal.